You can make all the statements you want, but if you don't back them up...

This is a re "print" of a conversation yesterday. As always, I'm very frustrated by the very slippery nature of "religious" people, who have so many interesting opinions but will not back those up and worse, slide away from any question put to them via any manner of logical fallacy.

The person in question did not return to this conversation but posted the following, interesting retrospective of it on their own site (in quotes). I note the person accuses me of saying "all religious people are idiots." I did not, nor did any of the other commenters, so I have asked the person in question for a public apology on that account. 

ptions for this story

"Recently, someone posted a comment calling all religious people idiots. I jumped right in, because I find religious and political debates hilarious. (HOUSTON, we already have a problem here. "Hilarious," is not a great starting point if someone intends to engage in a discussion of this sort. Secondly, this person accused me of something I did not write)

People get all fired up and irrational. Arguments from the other side aren't even considered, just summarily dismissed as people wait for their turn to spew practiced points. (Well that's fairly pejorative.... )

But this one left a sour taste in my mouth, and I realized why. 
Religion isn't the evil that plagues humanity as this person suggested, it's intolerance. (The funny part of this being religions are, by definition, intolerant of other paradigms, given followers are always on the job of making converts; indeed, as it relates to christianity and islam, followers are required by their "gods" through their "holy" texts, to be always on the job.... )
Any time you get a group of people who think they are better than another group, you're going to have problems. Nazi-sized problems. (Wow. Ok, so this writer has made a logical fallacy here of assuming the people writing opinions or citing facts she does not like or agree with 'think they're better than another group'.... )

This person praised pioneers in science for their imagination and curiosity while summarily deriding others for having the gall to wonder if there is a greater power in the universe. (I did NO such thing and this person, a journalist, knows better and has trampled on their journalistic ethics by making that statement)

Yes, bad things have been done by religious people. Religion has been used as a tool to control uneducated masses. But bad things have been done by non-religious folk as well, (however NOT in the name of atheism or humanism or secularism) and other tools have been used to influence people. We could point fingers and cite examples all day and never get anywhere. 

Life is short, and it is often hard. A little love, no matter what one chooses to believe about our minute existence here on earth, would go a long way. 

That's all. "

(Such a nice sentiment from someone who as twice attributed statements to me when I made no such statements, and who is calling for tolerance, but cannot tolerate challenges to whatever they think they "believe." I will state here too, there is a huge, chasmic difference between tolerating something or someone, and accepting)

This is the article I originally commented on:

Kenyan Pastors Burn HIV Drugs After Praying For Victims

Pastors at some Pentecostal churches in Kenya are conducting prayer services to “cure” patients infected with HIV, confiscating their anti-retroviral drugs and charging a fee for their healing prayers. The new trend is especially worrisome as patients may...

OPPOSING VIEWS

TS Equally idiotic is the stance that religion has never helped anyone. Religion is a power much  guns, it all depends on who is wielding it. In the right hands, religion can inspire greatness, love, selflessness, but in the wrong hands can bring suffering and death.

TS The irony is that those HIV drugs were probably paid for by a Christian aid group (Unsubstantiated statement)

ME How does religion help anyone? Also, guns are real. (Unanswered question 1.)

SM Gives them false hope.

AW Every sane person on the planet knows right from wrong without needing a religion to tell them. It's a natural instinct of all animals and probably the only remaining animal instinct in humans that is beneficial. In many cases religion only alters and blurs what is right and wrong. Killing is wrong, but killing in the name of god is acceptable?? Many religions enforce these altered ideas of right and wrong with blind faith and self-righteous attitudes, which in turn, creates more problems pertaining to ethics and morals. I firmly believe the most ethical and moral human beings are the ones who know right from wrong and also have no affiliation to any religion.

ME Sing it, Sistah!
There is not a single good thing done by any religious person or motivated by any religious group that could not have been done without religion. Not a single good deed in the world ever needed a god to make it happen, because humans are not robots. 

Religion is NOT a force for good in any logical sense if only for the reason it convinces good people they cannot be good without the slave master's threats of hell. AND, if a person is only good because they are motivated by the (false) reward of heaven, they are an opportunist, not a good person.

TS Ha ha Julie, religion IS real, I think it's God you don't believe in... And whether you to believe it or not, we all have our own religion (a system of beliefs and rituals) whether its consumerism, atheism or Christianity. To name a few. (Tara is engaging in another logical fallacy here, this time the fallacy called "Bandwagon.")
And you're right, there's not a single thing done by a religious person that couldn't have been done by someone else. But it sure as hell doesn't happen very often. (Here, again, Tara has made a statement but provides no support for it whatsoever. Research clearly shows her statement to be untrue and unfounded)
And humans aren't robots? Have you seen any Black Friday videos. I'd say that's some pretty scientific evidence right there. 
And lastly, if you don't believe in organized religion or wing nuts telling people what to believe, why are you so fervently attacking other people's ideologies?
I mean, I don't wrap a scarf around my head everyday but if it makes someone feel even a bit better about this cruel world we live in, dear God, just give it to them. 
I totally condone homeless people drinking too 

SM "And you're right, there's not a single thing done by a religious person that couldn't have been done by someone else. But it sure as hell doesn't happen very often." You are kidding me right? I know 100's of people who do random acts of kindness on a daily basis and it has nothing to do with their religion. Wow. I do know dozens of kind religious people too. The two are not mutually exclusive. That said, some of the worst cases of unkindness I've witnessed come from those 'godfearing religious folk'. Mega hypocrites.

ME You're right, I don't "believe" in god(s). If there is no evidence, there's nothing to "believe" in, and once there's evidence, one doesn't believe, one knows. 

But just so we're clear here, WHICH god are you suggesting I don't believe in? (Tara never answered this question and never clarified her position on god(s))

There have been about 4000 gods dreamed up by humans. There is not a shred of evidence for any of them, but I'm always interested in what evidence people believe they have. 

I disagree very, very strongly with your comment, "... there's not a single thing done by a religious person that couldn't have been done by someone else. But it sure as hell doesn't happen very often." This is decidedly NOT fact. Medecins sans frontiers is an entirely secular organisation; Steven Lewis's organisation, also secular; CFI international, secular; Planned Parenthood, secular; all the "sans frontiers" organisations are secular; and joe buddy down the street, who buys coffee for the people in line behind him/her, usually secular. 

I'm "attacking" ideologies that have shown themselves, time and time again, to be despicable and criminal, and which hide abusers and liars and couch that in terms of "god wants it this way."  (I would like to point out and make it VERY clear I am not, have not and do not attach PEOPLE; I do, however, challenged ideologies and I do appreciate when people who hold those ideologies support and substantiate them)

Religion does NOT make people feel better about living in this world. It gives them false hope, which is bad, and convinces them they are "sinners" and are faulty, and THAT is criminal.

It is fascinating how often (AKA almost always) the religious ignore atrocities committed in the name of their religion or their god and committed by their leaders, and fall into the trap of false pleadings or special knowledge or straw man arguments, rather than just say, "THAT is horrifying," which should be the response to the story above. It is HORRIFYING.

TS OoooWeee! Kicked a hornets nest 
Julie, does it matter which god, lol? I should've put an s after god. My point was that religion is very real and you don't have to believe in gods to have strange ideas floating around in your noggin. (This is an interesting turn of point of view, as it quite contradicts Tara's earlier stance)

 ME And just to insult an ideology even further, the Catholic church - the POPE himself - went on Twitter and asked for donations for the victims of Haiyan and that MONEY, which could have gone directly to very, very needy people, was used to purchase rosaries and bibles. PLASTIC BEADS and fairy stories. Seriously. 

Can you imagine what might have happened if that idiot had appealed to people to send dollars rather than contribute to the purchase of useless baubles that did NOTHING for the people and a LOT for enriching the vatican, via the profits that organisation makes through production of said plastic crap. 

There was a second organisation, also catholic, that used $3000 to also buy rosaries, which they also sent to the Philippines. THAT is CRIMINAL behaviour. 

Whereas, many, many secular and humanist organisations sent funds - useable stuff, money is - to aid organisations (Also secular) to help those people begin rebuilding. 

Elsewhere in Africa, children are being thrown out of their communities when they are accused as witches. Seriously. These heavily religious communities are tossing away their children. In other communities, albino children are also discarded and very often mutilated, because the religious leaders say those children are witches and the communities are so brainwashed by their religion and their "leaders" they treat their children  trash AND they countenance those children being tortured and often murdered. Who looks after those kids??? A SECULAR organisation that rescues them. SECULAR. NON-religious.

Who is looking after boys who are mutilated through circumcision rites? SECULAR organisations that pick up after the witch doctors who cut these boys up and "pray" over them, while their wounds are festering,. and when their "prayers" come to nothing, they throw these sick children into the streets, where secular doctors and nurses help them.

TS And whether you need a bible or a joint or even just a coffee to get you through the day, take it. Life is short. (This logical fallacy is called "appeal to emotion" and it serves to distract from the main argument, which, in this case, is the realities of religion as it relates to atrocities, which Tara is ignoring by her statement here)

ME Ok. Let's take on this one statement. "Religion is real." Substantiation please

ME www.godisimaginary.com

God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs

www.godisimaginary.com

SM  Sadly religion is real - even though the Gods aren't. And the amount of brainwashing and mistreatment of people at the hands of those religions is ridiculous. The sooner religion leaves society, the better.

ME ^ True.

TS Yup, SM, that's what I meant. Even if you don't believe in god, you can't argue that some people do and that belief is real.  John believes that windex cures herpes. Is that true? No. But is it true that John believes this? Yes.

TS And all the crap you pointed out that religious people have done, I could point out an equal amount of crap that non-religious people have done. (We're back to this premise that evil exists but that evil is committed in the name of religion by the religious, whereas, unless the person is insane and believes themselves to be 'god,' non-religious people do NOT commit crimes or atrocities in the name of any dogma or philosophy. This is a critical distinction)

TS Just as true is SM's comment that non-religious ppl do good stuff too.

ME Which is why atrocities continue to happen - because there are not more people like SM, AW and me, who "attack" ideologies that are CLEARLY dangerous, damaging and in far too many cases, murderous.

Yes, you CAN point out that all humans have the capacity for great good and great evil. 

You cannot, however, in any circumstance, show where atrocities are committed in the NAME of atheism, whereas there are centuries and centuries worth committed in the name of religion and gods.

TS This is fun, isn't it? 
Don't lie, you totally got fired up about this. You're going to remember this discussion long after you forget how to make wasabi peas or that your cousin got her braces off or any other post today.

ME I take any opportunity to expose religions for being as close to terrorism as they are, without co-opting the actual term.

TS Well, we'll have to disagree. I think religion is great 90% of the time. (And again, TS has provided no logical reason for this, and has ignored all the verifiable, obvious reasons religions are NOT great)

TS "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."
Dalai Lama

ME Ok, Show your work. Show me one single instance where religion has done something NO other philosophy could have accomplished. (TS at no point took me up on this)

As much as I appreciate the Dalai Lama, and appreciate the sweetness of that sentiment, it isn't accurate. Religion is defined as a set of codes and behaviours, expectations and dogmas. Kindness is decidedly outside the realm of "religion" and needs no religion to exist. Kindness is an innate human drive and has absolutely nothing to do with religion, and in demonstrable fact, there are hundreds and thousands of cases where kindness has been much trampled by the expectations of religion. 

Case in point the couples - plural - who are on trial for murder, some for the second and third times - for having caused their children to suffer horribly and to have allowed those children to die rather than seek out a doctor. Kindness went to hell in those situations. Atheist/humanists/secularists/brights do NOT allow their children to die because they default to muttering into the air. There is naught kind about religions that instil the means of overriding kindness and no person ever needed religion to be kind and moral. Ever. Not once in all of 14 billion years of this planet's history.

ME AND the story above is another case in point, where kindness - the provision of life-saving, family-saving drugs was destroyed thanks to religion overriding pure human kindness and caring.

TS I don't think this argument really has to do with religion. There are good people and there are bad people. There are smart people and there are stupid people. 

When you have a bad, smart person, they will use whatever tool is at their disposal to gain power. Sadly, religion is often one of those tools. 

But many good people have also used religion as a tool. You can't blame evil on religion anymore than religious people can blame evil on the devil. Google it, scientists have long shown that some animals are vicious for no reason. That "animals know what's right" statement is ridiculous. Some baboon species in the wild kill for the fun of it. 

At the end of the day, religion is just a set of codes, invented back when people didn't know shit about shit, to help people live together and maybe enjoy life and maybe not stress out if your one shot at life is pure misery.
(OK, so, why, in a post-modern civilization - and I'm speaking here of Canada, the UK, USA, Germany, etc, not of middle-eastern, theocracies, do we still rely on what this person admits here was devised when "people didn't know shit about shit?)

Speak out against evil people, I'll join you. 
Speak out against religion, and I'm not with you. (Ah. I see. Censorship where it relates to a subject this person doesn't have fully in hand and doesn't want to be challenged on. Very religious). 
I'm all for hope. Even if its false. (Let me redact this: "I'm all for false hope." Really??)

AW Religion is the poison that plagues mankind! Simply created by man, to control man. There was a time when the church ruled all; it was called the dark ages. Humans are fools to believe that religion isn't a means of control by the elite! It is science which moves mankind forward. Absolutely un a religion which essence is not to question laws, thus not revealing secrets of nature, not gaining this kind of knowledge.

Today it is accepted that it wasn't prayers, nor miracles that helped mankind achieve great discoveries and so increase advancement progress of our society. It was human curiosity and ability to solve mysteries of nature; mathematics, physics, biology and many other areas of science. I stand by my views that the decisions of these crackpot preachers to preach end enforce their "religion" over the use of medicine is a decision to do nothing at all

TS And you're a fool if you think getting rid of religion is going to solve anything. 
How biased do you think our laws are to the elite?
 I said, smart, bad people will use any tool they can to maintain power. Take away religion and they'll find another tool. 
PS no one is arguing about the crackpot preachers. Even religious people think they are stupid. Even the crackpot preachers don't believe their own shit. But they know how to make money.

TS  JC, first of all thank you SO much for brightening an otherwise boring day of work. I love this. Any time you want to debate, please pick me. 

ME Just to get me through the rest of my shift: one instance where religion did something no other philosophy could have is its given us a reason not to kill each other. (TS ignores this fact, being yes, humans commit atrocities; however, humanists, secularist, atheists do NOT commit atrocities in the name of any god, dogma or philosophy. They also totally ignore the FACT that christianity and Islam DO countenance murder)
Go.

AW I had an interesting discussion with somebody once on the same subject or rather in his words, the "problem" of what should replace religion once we get rid of it. I wondered what "problem" he was referring to. After all, when you visit countries in Europe you don't see a pressing need to come up with some institutions that replace religion. 

SM Here's a list of good things that religion provides (according to my friend): hope, love, beauty, joy, and moral teamwork. These are the things we get from organised religion. Really? I haven't noticed that these things are missing in the lives of my atheist friends. Nor have I noticed that the people of Denmark or Belgium are loveless, joyless and incapable of moral teamwork. 

AW In the 'cancer analogy' - when you cure cancer, do you replace the tumour with another one? Why do we have to replace religion with anything? Everything can be found in secular or atheist societies and individuals! 

This has been an interesting debate but I will leave it there for tonight.

Take a look at this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Religion-disappear-2041...

Religion could disappear by 2041 because people will have replaced God with possessions, claims...

www.dailymail.co.uk

Irish biopsychologist Dr Nigel Barber's contentious book proposes the market for formal religion is being squeezed by modern substitutes such as sports and entertainment - especially in more developed countries.

ME @Tara: WHEN did RELIGION give anyone the reason not to kill others???

Let's analyse: the New Testament is based on the bloody torture and death of it's key character, not to mention the deaths of many others.

The Old Testament is nothing but a litany of the Abrahamic god either killing its "created" beings, threatening them with death or ordering them to kill neighbouring tribes - women and children included, except for the virgins, which they were to keep as "spoils."

In REAL life, there's not a mentally-stable human around who doesn't know not to kill other people. NOBODY needs religion to tell them that. Humans are social animals and innately know collaboration is a better means to the end than killing whatever is in the way. RELIGION, however, very much supports the idea of killing, mostly because the main invisible characters function on the "Do what I say or I kill you," premise.

So please explain to me how religion has "given us a reason not to kill each other," when reality says exactly the opposite. See 9/11 and every other terrorist act in the last 2000 years for record. #inquisition #crusades #bombingsandshootingsofdoctors#rapeandkillingofgaypeople #tortureanddeathofsickchildren #sparetherod....

TS Hehehe well, many religions state that killing other people is bad. And those religious rules trickled down to the current laws we have today. From an educated, scientific point of view, killing people would be great for our planet as a whole  (without religion we can do away with the ridiculous notion that we are in any way different or more important than animals) but selectively killing people with certain genes would be awesome for our species as a whole.
(Gotta say, I'm pretty stunned by this statement. This writer ignores the most staunch proponents of the death penalty are the most religious; the most staunch supporters of slavery -which is biblical, and never repudiated anywhere in the bible, by the way- were the religious)

#hitler

TS And @AW, I think you misread. There is no problem of finding something to replace religion with. If we did away with religion today, people would find another way of controlling the masses the very next day. Same thing vice versa, ie the Roman Empire making the quick shift to Catholicism. (The Roman Empire did not make "a quick shift to catholicism." The Roman Empire co opted the many disparate "pagan" religions, took from them interesting parts i.e. the winter holiday celebration, co-opted some of those old religions' gods - i.e. Horus, Mithras, etc, etc - combined them into one - "jesus" and gave that character a life and a past, also based on those old religions).

This conversation ended here but picked up with TS alleging on her page, I had called all religious people idiots. 

I think religions are idiotic, untenable, and illogical and do not and cannot pass the evidence test in any respect. I have good friends and family members who are very religious and, as much as I cannot comprehend how, in a post-modern, science-based civilisation, they are still religious, it is what it is. Dispensing with religion frees one from the tyranny of the invisible man, from overriding one's natural morality and frees one to think - because accepting myths of boats containing all the worlds animals floating about for a year, and a whole tribe of people wandering for 40 years but leaving no trace whatsoever, is not thinking. It is the antithesis of thinking.

Bad Karma, Possibly

My youngest sister, who is 42 shortly, just had her first child, a daughter. My sister is lovely and the baby is lovely and it was a really welcome event, the arrival of this babe.

Sister lives away, and has done for a bit more than two years, so it was quite the event when she travelled her, new baby in tow. Everyone she knows was thrilled - which is to say 99.9 percent of everyone. Having her, her daughter and my mother all in the same place, given her age, and my mother's age, is an event in itself. Add to this our grandmother, who is 107 and I, the photographer side of I, thought what a great opportunity to create a generational piece.

I envisioned a photo of my niece, framed, and then a photo of my sister holding said frame, and then a photo of my mother holding that photograph, framed, and then, I hoped, I would engage my cousin in Nova Scotia,  where our grandmother lives, to take the final shot, that of our grandmother holding said framed photo of the three generations after her.

Enter reality.

Our mother is, in a word, odd. She lives a fantasy life, where, when we are all together, everything is butterflies and roses. In real life, however, when we are all together, she resents every moment she is not the centre of attention. Imagine her discontent when everyone's focus was on my sister and little niece. Within days of my sister's arrival, my mother was beyond discontent. Within a week, she was fully-armed and stomping about the warpath, engaged at every moment in a quest to convince my sister she is an entirely flawed human and most of that stems from MY presence on the planet. She has, since my sister and niece's departure home, kept up a out-and-out campaign of discrediting my sister and me, and the guest my sister brought and who my mother welcomed with both of her two faces.

My mother is jealous and angry. We have another sister, who puts my mother's behaviour down to her age. But my mother has never been content. My entire life she has been angry and self-absorbed and narcissistic - and, as my entire life is more than fifty years, I cannot put it down to age; it's something in her cells.

When 15 days of my sister's visit had passed, it was clear this photograph was not going to happen and, more importantly, perhaps should not happen. I regret this part very much, but I could not in any ethical sense, burden my sister with this project, which would have culminated in a photograph she would probably hate, not for the fact of four generations and such an amazing range of ages, but for the reality of having to explain, someday, to my niece, who these women were and why we had so little to do with them.

I hope we are rare as a family. I hope - I wish it fervently - we are members of a very small minority of people whose families are this fractured. We are not friends with our mother. We do not like her. Mostly we do not and cannot trust her. She is the definition of an abusive parent, lulling us into complacency, as we keep our distance from her. How many times have we thought, "She seems to have finally mellowed," only to reconnect and have her strike again, like a viper, leasing her venom to waft its stink about us.

So there will be no four-generation photograph because the memories it would bring would be near-deadly.

So, you're pissed off I asked you to support what your bible says. OK...

I have a young nephew who is very, very involved in religion. I have personal thoughts about how deeply-involved this youngster is - some veering off to concern - but he's not in my city, so I can only have digital conversations with him.

Those conversations are, in a word, FRUSTRATING.

In the wake of the weather-related devastation in Oklahoma, my young nephew posted this:

"Pray for Oklahoma."

This set me off HUGE. I asked him, point blank, what he thought the entire state had been doing over the previous days and over the last probably 200 years, every time terrifying weather was bearing down on that state. No reply other than, "you're a jerk to challenge god," type replies.

There is absolutely NO evidence, what so ever over any time, in any situation, in any case that prayer produces ANY result.

Despite the bible's more than 38 verses specifically on the subject, and its assertions 'god' answers all prayer, that is absolutely, obviously, verifiably NOT the case.

Here's what ensued; My comments are set off in blue

Pray for Oklahoma.

JC Really? BP, do you REALLY think, when those storms are approaching, those people aren't already praying? 

Those people in the bible belt spend a LOT if time praying and yet the storms still come and still devastate. 

Seriously.

DO something for Oklahoma. Red Cross is accepting donations, which are real, concrete and useful.

HW: Prayers are definitely needed.. Thankyou so much.

JC Prayer is useless. DO something.

The logical fallacy here is ridiculous! 

Do you REALLY think those peoplw havent been praying themselves to bits? Or are you saying they're not doing it right/enough, thus blaming the victims. 

Disgusting

JC If you people have the audacity to claim that not a soul has bee praying up to now... Your bible says "if tow are gathered in my name it will be granted..."(I paraphrase). 

It is endlessly egotistical and insulting to ask for "prayer," ignore the thousands who do with NO result and ask them to keep on doing it. Insulting and ridiculous.

HW: I live in Oklahoma. I know how scary this situation is. People are stuck on streets and people in Moore have no homes. Prayers are more useful than any donation! (I bloody doubt it) If you haven't noticed, authorities have to tell people to stop coming to help because so many people step up to pray  and help after these things. If you don't think it helps, then keep that opinion to yourself. (predictable "christian" censorship) Because here in our little "bible belt" we love God and the prayers we say are very effective. Even if we have nothing  but the shirts on our backs. I hope you realize that someday. God loves you. And praying is enough! And no not everyone here in Oklahoma are Christians and desperately need prayer to be safe. What are we suppose to do other than pray at this time? Run out infront of the tornado and beg it to stop? What does that do? What help does that do that get yourself killed? So best thing to do is ask God to keep is hand on all the family's being effected and the one that have no place to go.

HW: We never said no one was praying! Of corse (sic) everyone is praying right now! All BP asked was that people that aren't praying to please keep them in their thoughts and prayers.

We are asking prayer for the people who aren't praying thankyou very much.

JC Did you just actually write, in a public forum, that useless muttering into the air is more useful than concrete help? 

The audacity if the ego! How dare you! People need food, water and shelter, which they will get from other REAL humans.

And with all those already praying, why doesn't your "god" just respond and stay the winds. 

Your illogic is STUNNING. 

I am appalled.

HW: You would be surprised at how many people don't pray here! They are selfish! If you say it's insulting to ask for prayer your wrong! You saying that is insulting to the people dying, being stripped of homes, and being injured.

 JC Really.

It is disgusting. Fully. You seriously don't see how appalling your comments are? 

How dare you blame people for this act of NATURE?

HW If you think prayer for just a small group is enough, you are severely miss led.

HW I didn't blame anyone!!!! What the heck! Your putting words into my mouth! I never once said this was anyone's fault! Your right it's nature it happens! But praying that God will keep everyone safe is NOT blaming people for this!

Why would you not pray to a God bigger than any situation we come to face? I know I would be.

JC So explain to me, with all these people praying why your god does nothing.

HW: God works in mysterious ways. He is helping now. (load of shit) We maybe not see it right at this second. But he is. He is protecting people right now. You can see him working through all the people praying and working to help get people to safety. God is doing everything right now. In the bible is says, he will never leave us nor forsake us. He is here with us right now. You just can't see it because you have no faith in him. (additional load of shit)You look over the good things that are happening. You just look at the big problem and say he is doing nothing when he is actually doing everything.

JC How many hundreds if times has the region been devastated by tornados and how many hundreds of thousands over the years have prayed and NOTHING.

When is this god of your planning to stop ignoring the prayer s he promises to ALWAYS answer?

The atheist community put out a call for donations and raised 1/2 a million dollars in two days

And how dare your pray and ask your god to change its mind about its divine plan! How dare your challenge the will of god, who creates this weather and you and decides where the storms will hit!

Prayer is a ridiculous, torturous waste of time and does NOTHING but make the lazy feel better.

Do you begin to comprehend your dilemma?

What utter bullshit.

EITHER your god makes good on its promises or it is a malicious, murderous asshole.

HW Nothing you say is true! God never promise us a perfect life! Things happen because in the beginning sin came into the world! This happen because of sin! God created us and loves us! God doesn't ignore us! He listens and answers prayers! Like I said before! And you say they raised that money? Well think about this, guess how many people were praying that people would help give in order to help. Guess how many prayed that more people would get out of their homes and help. Let me answer, A LOT! So your saying that an atheist community raised money, well so didn't many church's, schools, and family's. that is answer to prayer. You will not see God just all of a sudden fix something. He uses everyday people to show it. Yes god knows what is to come. But it is a blessing to be warned before huh. If this was a perfect world with no sin, then these things wouldn't happen. We would all worship God and we would never feel pain or hurt.

HW If that's your opinion, then that's your opinion. I know what I believe and I know God isn't just some God that likes to toucher us. He loves us and what's us all in heaven one day with him. I hope someday you realize that.

JC Torture, actually and yes, actually, given this 'god' of yours has, for as long as the US has been a country and Oklahoma a state, ignored every single prayer, and particularly those "Please turn this from us," it certainly seems to enjoy torturing it's subjects.

OR, it is impotent OR it is non-existent. What is is NOT, is real, able to act on prayer, or willing to act on prayer, despite the what? 12 biblical verses that say it WILL answer prayer....

As for 'sin' coming into the world, your "god" supposedly created a man from dust, gave him free will and a wife from a rib (a biological impossibility, unless you say you believe in magic), knew every hair on their heads and every thought they had, set them up for failure and added in the also-impossible talking snake, and did nothing to stop it even though he knew what they were up to and then blamed them for it. 

THAT, my dear, is what an abusive spouse does. 

I'm going to copy this conversation and pull out the questions I asked you, which you did not answer, and all the circular and contradictory reasoning you proposed.

HW I'm sorry you believe this way. I know what I believe and I am very faithful to my God. He loves me and he proved it to me many many times. Yes I'm a Christian, no I do not have a perfect life, no I don't have all the answers. But I do know what is true an I believe it with all my heart. I know in the end that I'm going to heave to be with my savior forever. If you don't believe that way then that is you.

HW Thankyou for helping realize I really need to seek out the answers to questions I don't know.

JC Oahhahaha... Oh Heather... I'm just re-reading your comments. How you turn and struggle to avoid acknowledging the obvious....

HW I didn't struggle at all? I knew what I was talking about. All I said was I don't know everything. Neither to you.

JC Let's start here: How many cultures have the "creation" myth? How many of them are older than christianity? (I'll give you this one. ALL of them).

Is god all knowing, all powerful?

Does 'god' have a plan for everyone? 

Is god responsible for the earth and everything in it?

Does god control the winds, the sun, the moon and the tides?

In how many places in the bible is it stated god answers all prayer?

How many times in the last 200 years have tornadoes caused devastation in just Oklahoma?

What is the percentage of christians in Oklahoma? How many of those do you suppose are praying on a regular basis (estimate is acceptable)?

Referring to the many biblical promises that god answers prayer, and taking into account the large demographic of christians in Oklahoma who (we can assume) are praying on a fairly regular basis), and also taking into account the number of times Oklahoma has been devastated by tornadoes, WHY does god ignore prayer?

RE heaven: given the amazing many-year-long voyage of Hubble and the astounding images being returned by that vessel, and given there are 400 GALAXIES like the one we live in that are viewable by the human eye, and given that with all the Challenger missions and the current space station and all the satellites currently in orbit and that at NO time has "heaven" been viewed, discovered or even suspected, what is YOUR evidence for this mythical place?

What is the definitive proof for your god and why does that proof not ALSO prove the other 4000+ gods humans have created, including the gods that other religions are ALSO positive are real?

What is one verified, corroborated incident where prayer was proven to be the cause of a desired result? Provide the verification.

What is the biblical penalty a man must pay for raping an unmarried woman? What is the penalty that woman's father must pay?

In the bible, does it say "Happy are they who smash their little ones on the rocks," or is that made up?

What penalty did god order for a group of little children who taunted an old, bald man? Hint - bears.

By what earthly thing can god be stopped? 

What is the penalty for wearing mixed fabrics? For planting mixed crops? For cutting one's sideburns?

What must one do if one's neighbour is not a believer?

What must parents do with their disobedient kids? (Hint: Leviticus)

What is the verified archaeological evidence for a small tribe of people wandering about in a very small area of desert for 40 years? Has any evidence ever been discovered that would verify this story?

If six cubits is as high as a mountain, then how did Noah manage to feed all the animals twice a day on a wooden boat that was 18 MILES long? 

If Noah had two of every kind of animal only, what did he feed the carnivores for a year?

What is the weight of two of all the know species of just spiders? (Answer: 5 tons)

How did Noah, at 600 years old, know about and then acquire polar bears from the north pole and penguins from the south, and iguanas from the Galapagos?

How did Noah, at 600 years of age, manage all the poop that would have piled up on that ship every day?

How did Noah, at 600 years of age, know if he had all the animals of the world, what they ate and how to keep the bacteria he would have also had from killing the hosts they lived on?

OK. Go.

JC Oh yeah! Also, HOW exactly did god manage to create light and dark TWO days before sun, moon and stars? Magic is not the answer. Either there is a light source or there is not. Can't have it both ways.

JC Go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A&feature=player_embedded

Proving that prayer is superstition

For details: http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com/ 

JC HW, the way you wrote this - with a question mark, where there should not be one, is telling: "I didn't struggle at all?" By writing that statement and ending it with a question mark, you expose that you were struggling and you know you were. It has the effect of you asking yourself if you struggled and answering that question at the same time. 

I really hope you will answer all those questions up there. You needn't post the answers, but I hope you will go find out. I'm sure it will be revealing. 

I also hope you will listen to that video above.

JC Matthew 18:19. Either this is true or it is not true. IF you are honest with yourself and you consider the last 200 years in Oklahoma, the number of christians who pray and the fact of devastating weather you either have to ignore reality in order to "believe" in prayer or you have to be real and acknowledge prayer is superstition.

JC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nayP4v4xYg

Proving that God's Plan is impossible

By watching this short video, you will be able to prove to yourself that the ide...See more

JC Psalms 139:16. Either this is true or it is not. This cannot be negotiable.

HW You obviously haven't even read the bible because almost all of the answers are found in there. (This is totally my favourite, because she didn't comprehend I was asking her questions right out of the bible). A lot of the laws in the Old Testament don't apply to today times. They find things that prove the bible right all the time. If you would do some studying you would find the answers to these questions. God is all powerful. And I put the question mark because I was questioning why you even said that I was when you don't have all the answers either. The answer to the questions are in the bible. And I have experienced Gods presence many times and know he is real. Your just blinded by what the world tell you. But again sin is in the world. It's not perfect. Heaven is a real place. God never said it was in outer space. Again reading the bible answers these questions. I'm just telling you God has really changed my life. I know He is real and believe everything the bible tells me. I learn something new everytime I read it. Showing that I don't know everything and there is so much about God that I have to learn. No I will never know everything about Him. He wouldn't be a mighty God if we all did know everything about him.

JC Heather. I come from TEN generations of ministers. I assure you I have read it - many times - and can quote it. 

I KNOW the answers are found in there. I'm asking you to go LOOK at these verses and answer the questions I've asked you, from the bible.

WHO is "they" who are finding "things" (what things; be specific) all the time. 

IF god is all powerful, then WHY does he NOT answer the prayers of millions?

What is your EVIDENCE that heaven is a real place?

Give me the exact place in the bible that says exactly where heaven is.

C'mon. Just answer these questions.

HW:I have looked. Many times. I grew up in church. Been over seas on mission trips. Just got home from a church camp as a sponsor. I know what the bible says and what I'm telling you in some of you questions don't even matter! There just little thing that shouldn't even be questioned.

BK: Okay keyboard warriors it's time for this to settle down. BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE, pray for it, don't pray for it.. It shouldn't bother you what someone else believes, your obviously not gonna convert each others opinions so stop trying. This pissing war is turning into a fucking facebook novel, Mark Zuckerberg should put a filter on anything that involves religion. It just starts a flame war.

JC NO. THAT is a horrible idea. 

Brandon. Are you SURE you mean what you just said?

JC: HW, answer some of these questions.

NEITHER of you gets off the hook until you can stand behind what you claim.

BK: I think its better not to discuss matters like this via facebook, talking to someone in person is way better. Also I think RELIGION is the downfall of a lot of things, but I don't think being SPIRITUAL is bad.

31 May at 21:17 · Like

JC: BK, in some cultures the belief is that a widow should be burned on a pyre when her husband dies: Do you support that belief:

In some religions, women are held responsible for men's sexuality and so, when they are very young girls, they are held down, in public, and subjected to a man cutting out their clitoris and labia, in order they not tempt men. This is a religious belief. Are you SURE you mean "believe what you want to believe," or is that act abhorrent to you?

In some religions, albino children are considered witches and are hacked apart with machetes. Are you SURE you mean what you say or is that act abhorrent to you?

"Spiritual" is a fence-sitting cop out.

JC: As for Facebook, it is an excellent place for these discussions, as they tend to be read. If one person gets real, steps back from the crap they think they believe and THINKS for a second, then the discussion has done its job.

MP: They definitely need our prayers. May God be close to everyone affected and send those who can help quickly!

JC: MP, 200 years of hundreds of thousands of people praying has produced absolutely NO result. No matter how often people mutter into the air, NOTHING will come of it. The people affected by the devastation need ACTUAL help and ACTUAL support. 

It is an affront to desperate people to continue to ask them to "pray" when there is utterly no BPefit. Not now, not ever.

HW: I never said the bible said exactly where heaven is. It says it's a real place. About the weight of all the animals, that's why the boat was so big. An the fact that God was with them the whole time. Noah was faithful and did as God told him. 
What must one do if their neighbor isn't a believer? Well in the bible God said go and make disciples of all nations. We are to lead others to come to know Christ. 
No earthly thing can stop God. 
Noah had to being extra things on the ark to feed his family and the animals Genesis 6:21. He also took younger animals because they don't have predatory instincts yet and don't reproduce yet. 
All the animals came to Noah genesis 6:20

JC: B, you are more than welcome to sign off, but you don't have the right to censor

JC: HW, fine. You've said three times now heaven is a real place. WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE?

AS for the 'boat,' the size is described twice in the bible. In one instance, the boat is 2/3rds the size of the Titanic; in the second description, it is 18 MILES long. WHICH is correct?

JC: Noah is not only a myth, the entire story is pulled from religions much, much older than christianity. The first written incidence of the "noah" story is 8000 years old and Babylonian.

JC: Also HW, you are incorrect when you state "A lot of the laws in the Old Testament don't apply to today times." Read Matthew 5;18-19.

HW: How can the bible state that it's 2/3rds of the titanic if it didn't even exist yet? Genesis 6:15: length 300 cubits, breadth 50 cubits, height 30 cubits. Which makes it around 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, 45 feet high, inside capacity would have been 1.4 million cubic feet. Deck area of 95,700 square feet.

JC: BK, a troll does not provide information and links: a troll has only the function of stirring things up. I am asking you and Heather to back up what YOU stated. If you cannot support your arguments, or if you are bothered by being asked to support your argument, then don't make it.

HW: I never made the argument. You did. All I said at the beginning was thankyou to BP for the prayers because they were needed

JC: Well, HW, that is a VERY good question! HOW can the bible state ANYTHING that hasn't happened yet. And on that note, who, exactly, was Also in the garden of Eden, reporting on these events. 

Also, if there was only Adam and Eve, who had two boys, one of whom killed the other, and who eventually married, WHERE did his wife come from? #incest

JC: Yes, you did, and I followed up with a LOT of information showing via verifiable history, statistics and simple observation that prayer is a ridiculous, insulting, useless waste of time.

JC: You are not correct re the dimensions of that boat because elsewhere in the bible, six cubits of water is described as "enough water to cover a mountain." That's a LOT of water and so your dimensions and that description would mean the arc was 18 MILES long. Which is it? And why is the bible contradictory on this very, very important measurement?

HW: I was talking about the titanic. Quit turning my words into something I didn't mean for them to be. Your (sic) just twisting my words to make you look right.

MP: Uhh there is MUCH evidence from believers that prayer changes things. It is our privilege as believers to talk to God and petition him for our needs on on behalf of others. For those who do not believe it may seem like a waste. And we receive anawers (sic) to prayer through the Holy Sprit which again is reaerved (sic) for believers. if you do not believe it is understandable that you do not get it. But I can speak from personal experience that God answers prayer so I will continue

JC: By the way, 450 feet long makes that boat about 1/2 the size of the Titanic, which held what? 3000 people? There are far more animals, particularly if you're talking of two at ta time, than 3000. THAT story is utterly impossible and ridiculous.

JC: MP, please tell me the last time believers took advantage of that privilege and prayed for another believer who suffered an amputation, that the severed limb would re-grow.

WHAT evidence. I would LOVE someone to provide this evidence they keep talking about.

HW: They don't pray that it would regrow. But that the surgery would go well an that that person will be able to live their life in a positive way again.

HW: There are lots of people in the world that go out if their way to pray for people. For all sorts of reasons. But it's just common sense in a situation like that to know that it's not going to regrow. You just have to pray for what can be helped.

JC: I am going to sign off. 

I am appalled that people would rather sit about and mumble into the dark than do something necessary and concrete.

DOING something DOES result in a BPefit. Muttering into the dark does NOT. Period.

There is not a shred of evidence at all, at any time, that prayer is anything more than muttering. Period. 

It sickens me that people resort to such a ridiculous and passive act, when so many need real help, real blankets, real food, real somewhere to stay, real care for their children, and when they get those things, they get them from HUMANS, not some invisible idiot who is alleged to be all powerful and to have a plan, but is absolutely deaf to how many prayers over how many years. 

IT IS APPALLING to ignore the reality of what you're all saying, when reality absolutely and concretely proves prayer is utterly, fully, endlessly useless.

www.godisimaginary.com

I realise none of you will go to that site but if you ever have the honesty to really challenge what you think you know, then you will.

God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs

www.godisimaginary.com

JC: HW, the bible is CONTRADICTORY on the point of size.

Yeah, they don't pray for it to regrow.. Nice. Heather, you've said some really dumb things here but that one wins. They don't pray for it to regrow, because ALL humans get to that point where REASON and LOGIC override their belief in fantasy. This is to say they KNOW no amount of prayer will cause a severed limb to regrow.

EITHER god is honest and true and WILL answer ALL prayers in the name of himelf/hisson/theallinonegod including those CERTAINLY made by amputees that their limbs regrow, or he does not.

HW: Okay. Whatever you believe is how you believe. Again I know what I believe and I know what the bible says. I'm not going to argue with you about things that you can look up. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it's not true. Just because you listen to what other non believers say doesn't mean it's not true. And I really like that you are telling me what I say is dumb when you don't even what to try and listen to what I believe in. I'm not going to keep saying what I believe it you keep trying to turn my words into what I'm not saying.

JC: What I find so appalling and weird is you who argue for prayer want it both ways: you state god is true and does what he says, but then you IGNORE the FACT despite how many years of horrific storms and how many millions of prayers, NOT A SINGLE TIME has "god" lived up to "his word" and stopped any of those storms, nor has any prayer, group of prayers, money paid for prayers EVER caused a limb to regrow.

You cannot have it both ways. Either god does what he says or he does not. EVIDENCE shows he does not, which is not surprising given the near perfect zero likelihood of the christian god being any more real than any of the other 4000 others humans have proposed.

Now. If any of you actually wishes to do something concrete and ACTUALLY wants to help, there are any number of charitable organisations taking money, blankets, food, clothing.

HW: All I said was people pray that people will be able to live their life again. And they will get through the surgery. Praying isn't something you do to be selfish. It's talking to God even when nothing's wrong. You have no idea what prayer is.

JC: No, HW, I do NOT believe. I rely on evidence. If there is not viable evidence, there's no reality. Belief exists despite evidence. Knowledge happens thanks to evidence and fact AND is subject to constant revision, thanks to emerging evidence.

So if you're the person who's had a limb cut off, it's selfish for you to pray to have it regrow? Bloody hell. Do you not see how much machinations you have to go through to make this all fit your paradigm?

Go back and look up some of those questions. Seriously. Go challenge yourself. 

I am particularly interested in how you will rationalise 200 years of horrific, devastating storms in a heavily christian state, where one can assume there is nea...See More

HW: Disasters happen all over the world. Not just here in our Christian state. And if you can see on tv all the donations and supplies donated are answers to prayers of the effected. I'm done trying to explain that. I've said it so many times.

JC: I am going to sign off. 

I am appalled by the conversation in that so many absolutely ignore reality and resort to an act that is demonstrably useless.

If you want to help, then contribute tangible things - clothing, food, blankets, money.

God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs

www.godisimaginary.com

BP, three: John 14:13,14; 2. And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask Me for anything in My name, and I will do it. 3. If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

JC: John 15:7 is the second one. Do you say these are true?

No answer?

Here's the deal: either the 38 + verses in the bible that GUARANTEE god will answer prayer are true or they are not. That said, if you really synthesise them all, you will find that not a soul on this planet has a hope of answered prayer because there are all sorts of conditions, including what amounts to being guilty of thought crime. Very 1984.

So. If we only consider Oklahoma and that weather has been tracked there for let's say, conservatively, 100 or so years, and that Oklahoma is a decidedly religious state, we can very safely assume there are faithful people and generations of faithful families who have, for at least that many years, been praying their hearts out their "god" will protect them from devastation due to hurricanes and tornados.

AND, if you check even the last 25 years of records, you will absolutely find no such thing has happened.

You cannot have it both ways. Either your 'god' is faithful and just, and hears its subjects or it does not.

JC: The EVIDENCE is very, very clear: no amount of prayer results in the desired action.

The EVIDENCE is also very clear, prayer is utterly futile.

NOW. Consider this: the bible states god PLANS the hours of your birth and death. IF that is true, then prayer MUST be futile, because death from whatever cause, natural, natural disaster, or abortion is PLANNED by this god.

Either the bible is the word of god - and the hours of your birth and death, and all the things you will do and will come to you are planned out and known and decided by this god, or the bible is NOT the word of god.

You can't have it both ways.

And IF you say god is the supreme being, the father, and if you say it/he/she knows every hair on your head and from before you were born, how futile is prayer and how presumptuous are humans to pray to the being they say is supreme, and as it to change it's "mind."

This is a CRITICAL reality for you and for religions in general - as they all have a supreme, all-knowing being supervising everything and one that requires its subject to be in constant adulation, despite those subjects also attributing horrific weather, horrific acts (see Sandy Hook et all) to god punishing them. It is frankly disgusting, BP.

Someone on your "pray for Oklahoma" feed said prayer is more important than aid. This is such a terrible, ridiculous thing to say. I will tell you, as a parent and an auntie, if your children are hungry and without a place to sleep, AID, not prayer, is what you want and need and to say suffering is honourable, when that suffering might mean your child dies in your arms, is fully, fully despicable.

I realise I'm hammering you on these points but to ignore them, to not really, fully understand what you say - and what it means - will lead you to a place where you MUST, in order to support your paradigm, deny reality. THAT is not a good state.

A quote:

“It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvellous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil - which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.”-Richard P. Feynman0

BP: I'm done. Fine you win, whatever. Yeah Im tired of constantly hearing about all this crap how God can't save and prayer is wasted. There's a ton I'd love to say, but what's the point. I'm not swayed but what you say and your not swayed by what I say. In the end, when we both die, I guess we will find out. Keep trying to prove that he isn't real, it's only going to be much worse for you. I don't need quotes from scripture which you take out of line. And I don't need to constantly say that things like Sandy Hook, are HUMANS who have free will to make these decisions. But keep on going with what you believe. I'm done listening to someone who will be ignorant about so much, and twist everything around. If your 100% sure your right, read the bible front to back. Just read it, no stopping to rant about how ridiculous it is. Just read it, and if I'm wrong and 4 other billion people are, then it's all a hoax. And please don't respond, I don't need another essay.

JC: I'm not trying to 'prove god isn't real." I'm saying the EVIDENCE that we DO have suggests 'god' is pretty much impossible and beyond that, there's no good evidence to support the existence of ANY god.

So here's my last question:

EVERY religion says it is right and true and that its particular god is THE god.

Can they ALL be true?

If not - and the answer MUST be "No, they cannot all be true," then NONE is, because they all claim essentially the same thing.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm proposing that one should really THINK about these things. It matters.

It should also matter to you that you're not in a position of clinging so firmly to things that are not substantiated that you are forced to deny reality.