tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-64987872024-03-15T19:12:44.699-06:00The Stupid FilesA Diary of Stupid Human Tricks.
Commentary on everything from Joe Average to international politics.WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.comBlogger393125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-46326292224640488982023-03-12T20:46:00.004-06:002023-03-12T20:46:56.840-06:00Depression made me fat. It also nearly killed me. One day to termination... <p> In 2014, I was photographing a place for one of my (then) realtors. I happened to catch a look on their face... I was angry and embarassed all at the same time. I could tell they were disgusted by my size. I had been doing a fair amount of work for this client, but after that day, I never heard from them again. I was so appalled, hurt, and hating myself. </p><p>I had just gone though a period - being a good two years - of a deep depression and had gained a lot of weight - maybe not a lot by some standards, but 50lbs on a 5'4" frame is a lot. My ideal weight is between 120 and 125. </p><p>Around the same time, my sister came to my house. She hadn't been over and we hadn't seen each other for several years. If you read this blog, you'll know the backstory. She had barely sat down at my table before she looked at me and said, "You need to lose about 50 pounds, hey?" Between her and my client, I was again pitched into a pit of self-loathing. <br /></p><p>In February 2015, I hired a trainer and hit the gym for a bunch of reasons: I was super pissed of by that client's unspoken but very loud comments, and my youngest was getting married. So I went at it. Hard. For 18 months, I was on a specific, non-changing diet and in the gym five to six days a week. I lost a ton of weight, gained a pile of muscle, was wearing a size 4, and was feeling great. My trainer encouraged me to compete, and I did that too. I came in last there but that was ok. </p><p>During that time, I donated a lot of my clothing because I couldn't imagine not being in the gym at least four days a week. I thought my habits were well-established and that yes, I'd gain a bit of weight - because one cannot survive on a competition diet forever - but I was pretty confident I'd be able to maintain a reasonable weight for a person my age. My trainer said not to get rid of my clothes - she's a very winning competitor and she told me she usually gains 20 lbs between competitions, but I was deluded and thought size four was a forever thing. </p><p>Shit happens when you're not paying attention.</p><p>In 2017, early in the year, I took up pottery. I was still in the gym, but I really enjoy pottery and it began taking up more of my time. The weight began to come on. I should note here I have very few mirrors in my house and none are full-length. That's a whole other story in a book called dismorphia. </p><p>By 2019, I wasn't in the gym more than three days a week. I didn't have my trainer anymore, and I had let other pursuits take some of that time. <br /><br />I knew I wasn't doing well, so in the spring of 2018, I got an appointment with my friend's doctor, who my friend likes very much, for an assessment for anxiety. Unsurprisingly, it came back with high anxiety and depression. That doc sent me to a counsellor, who was great but who is part of a group of professionals. I could not see this one person on a regular basis and couldn't choose to see them specifically - one gets who one gets in that clinic. I didn't want to be relating the whole story every time I saw a different counsellor, so I didn't pursue. I should say though, the initial assessment was that I'm not a terrible person, that I have some life-long family-related challenges, but I have a very supportive spouse and three great adult children, who are in the loop about the family stuff, so I figured I'd just carry on. I wasn't feeling awesome but I wasn't suffering too much. </p><p>In early Feb 2019, I was asked to participate in a public talk with five other people in my profession. It was a HUGE nod: one of the presenters is top of the field in this country, and I was blown away to share the stage with her. I remember seeing the video of my part of the event, and liking my presentation but also being aware I had gained a bunch of weight. I was disturbed and that realisation bored into my brain like a worm... </p><p>Then the pandemic hit. My gym closed, we were locked down for six weeks, I was lonely, bored out of my mind, angry, frustrated. Stupidly, and not realising I was sliding deeper, I was on twitter a lot. Twitter is poison generally, but for depressed people, it is as dangerous as a loaded gun. <br /><br />I stopped going to the gym after it reopened. It was so on again, off again for another year, I couldn't re-establish a healthy, regular habit. Add to that, I developed a real dislike, bordering on phobia about seeing people masked. Masked and huffing at the gym was not on my dance card... </p><p>I wore a mask when necessary but I avoided going anywhere it was necessary, which is to say I quit going out of the house any more often than necessary - work, and pottery. Our studio owner at the time was a 77 year-old man with a pacemaker and diabetes, so for him, I masked. </p><p>My spouse loves grocery shopping so that was covered. There was a period I'd go to the shops with them but I would not go in, becasue I didn't want to see them in a mask. I still have PTSD about masks, especially those damned blue medical masks. </p><p>What I didn't know was that I was already depressed and sliding into another debilitating depression. I knew I wasn't doing well, but I didn't have a clue how far in that deep dark well of despair I already was. By January 2021, after the 2020 winter holiday season that didn't happen, I was in bad shape. Bad enough that I was ideating not rarely. In late January that year, I was in full thinking about it all the time mode - and I'm talking about suicide here. </p><p>One evening - a Sunday night, I was in the pottery studio by myself, and I could not stop crying. I was alone, sobbing, and wondering if there was any tubing about. I was lucid enough to know I was in crisis, so I called our city's crisis line and was with an intake person for two hours. She was concerned enough about my state she wanted to send the city police to transport me to hospital, but I told her I was going to go home, that my spouse was there, and I'd be ok. I was, until about 2 a.m., when I woke up in a panic of despair, and again was picturing where there was hose in my garage. Again, I called the crisis line and spent another two hours with them. </p><p>The next day, I told my spouse what was going on so they were aware. They're very supportive. Very. <br /></p><p>Meanwhile, there was encouraging news about a vaccine, and spring was coming. I had some hope. But I was out of the gym completely, my diet was shit; there was a lot of wine by this point - not to the point of alcoholism, but a couple glasses every night. Again, I had no idea I was as depressed as I now know I I was. Everyone was struggling, we were 14 months into the damned pandemic, and I just figured everyone was feeling as I was. </p><p>In July 2021, our government lifted the mask mandate. It was absolutely amazing. It lifted my spirits a LOT to not see everyone masked up. Yes, people carried on masking but very many fewer. At the same time, our city's huge annual rodeo happened, and we got the go-ahead to photograph an event we'd been shooting for four years. So the summer was fine. I knew I wasn't at my best, but I felt the pandemic was behind us, and I could begin healing. But no. </p><p>In early September, our goverment put the mask mandate back into place, and I felt absolutely crushed. I had three vaccinations on board by then, so having that mandate come back... On September 4th, I walked into our members only pottery studio thinking we wouldn't be subject to the mandate, and found everyone masked. I lost it. I went on a big, scary, loud, angry rant. I absolutely freaked out everyone in there - 20 people at least - who had never seen me in any kind of state, let alone ranting. I had to apologise specifically to two people who I seriously scared - and I will say I scared myself as well.</p><p>As I sat at my wheel, tears pouring down my face, despair choking me, one of the members came by me. As background, I thought we were good friends. I had introduced this person to their spouse, photographed their wedding, done headshots for them both, hung out with them, trained with one of them for a while. As he passed in front of me, he asked what was wrong. Through my tears, I said I was so frustrated at people who wouldn't vaccinate because we were back to mid-pandemic dystopian facelessness everywhere. He literally laughed in my face. I didn't know he was an anti-vaxx idiot. I felt like I'd been struck. </p><p>Two days later, on his facebook, his mother, who was faced with vaccinating or being out of a job for a while, posted that she had "gone on the special train, and it was really smoky in there." There is little that enrages me as much as racisim, so this horrifing equating vaccinating - literally a life-saving, socially-conscious, right minded thing to do - with trains transporting Jewish people to their deaths in German ovens absoltely blew me apart. </p><p>And I was descending ever further into a black, black depression. You know the "frog in water on the stove" analogy - the one where a frog in water won't notice the heat creeping up until it's too late and it dies by being boiled? Yeah... that's what was happening to me. </p><p>An aspect of depression for me is intense anxiety centred on my weight; an anxiety so profound and debilitating, I had become absltuely obsessed about my weight. I would wake up sometimes 20 times a night in an absolute panic. Concurrently, I was so depressed, I couldn't imagine going out of the house, let alone to the gym. I did not want anyone to see me: I'd gone from 130, all muscle to 160, flabby, palid, anxious, angry. </p><p>December 2021 rolled around. We had a very good winter holiday - lots of friends and family over for dinner. I wasn't ok, and I knew it, but at least we could have our traditional holiday family dinner. </p><p>This is where it took an absolutely devastating turn. I lost my persective. My anxiety became extremely pronounced to the point I was misinterpreting everything, and I was engaging in rants - two hours at a time - a few times a week. My spouse could not understand, and could not help. In this context of massive depression, debilitating anxiety and paranoia, I started to believe my kids (all busy, productive, amazing adults) had begun to dislike me to such a point they were no longer calling, or even responding to texts. </p><p>There was LOTS going on I didn't know about: I didn't know my eldest and her partner were really struggling. Add to that, she had to let go of her lovely dog - an 11 year old boxer/bull terrier with terrible joint issues. His joints literally liquified. It was terrible. My other daughter in town was also struggling with massive anxiety which at one point caused a physical reaction - paralyisis in one of her legs. So their not calling was due to all sorts of stuff not related to me. But I knew none of it except for the dog, so I was taking it all very, deeply, horrifyingly personally. </p><p>I finally decided I should say something, but in my state, I had no good grip on what to say, or how to say any of it. They took it as an indictment. It sparked five months of silence from one of them, and utter chaos via texts - I was writing pages and pages of insane angry, abusive, horrifying, accusitory rants to my children - all three of them, and imagine for my youngest, who lives in the US in a no-travel permitted bloody pandemic. Meanwhile, I had ramped up my rants to almost every day, for hours on end. This culminated in June with me essentially telling my spouse to leave, that we were done, me jumping in my car and heading west into the mountains in a white-out spring storm. The one thing that saved me from not driving off a cliff - literally, because I wanted to so, so badly - was my dog; she was in the car with me and I adore that dog. There is no way I was going to hurt her. </p><p>My intention was to drive 3 hours west and hole up in a hotel in a small town where I feel safe. But I was so incredibly depressed, I couldn't do it. My anxiety was so intense, I could not drive that road I've driven so many times in my life. I managed to get 45 kms west of my city, and could not do it. Depressed, massively anxious and loathing my inability to do ANYTHING. I dragged myself back home, still white hot angry, buzzing with anxiety. Finding my spouse here, I badgered them. "Why are you still here?!" My spouse is a strong person. In 26 years, I've seen them shed tears twice: once when our first dog had a terrible accident, and we had to let him go, and this moment, where I was bullying them to leave. <br /></p><p>I was still not fully aware of how actually serious my depression was. I had been crying for hours every day for, by then, four months, but in that state, I believed my children were victimizing me, my spouse was colluding with them, and that everyone was against me. </p><p>Then, my middle daughter sent me a long text. Within, were the words, "you are my abuser." That was the bottom. I was done. I had done to my children what my mother had done to me. I had not only abused them for by then six months, I believed they hated me, and that left me zero to live for. </p><p>But that message, those words, were like a kick in the head. Something broke through. I called my doctor and said I wanted to take my life, that I had ruined my relationships with my children and my spouse, and that I could not live anymore. Writing this, I'm sad for myself. I've struggled with depression all my life, and I have had three periods where suicide seemed the only way to stop all the pain, but I had never called anyone to say, "I'm doing this. I am a liability to everyone around me." <br /><br />I've known my doctor since she was 4 and I was 5. Her former spouse hung himself where his children would find him. She knew the sounds, and she HEARD me. She immediately sent me mental health assessments, booked an apointment with a psychiatrist, got me connected to a psychologist and got me on an anti-anxiolytic. </p><p>Often attendant with anxiety and depression is gut issues. It should have been a clue that I have had such severe reflux for 10 years that between that an waking up due to obsessing about my weight, I was not sleeping. I think I was getting maybe four hours on a good night for the last 15 years. Didn't help we had a mattress with memory foam, which is bloody torture for hot sleepers. My doc got me on some meds for reflux too. </p><p>I've been on this drug now since June. My suicidial ideation began subsiding about four weeks after starting this drug, and between then and now, it very, very rarely peeks around the corner for a sec and then goes away. I have also finally stopped obsessing over my family issues, which invaded my thoughts very, very often for more than 40 years. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this particular drug I'm on literally saved my life, and let me put up a huge, thick, mostly soundproof wall between myself and my family and their bullshit and their narcissism. I'll come back to this in another post. </p><p>So back to the issue of weight. I am the heaviest I have ever been in my life. I don't know how much I weigh, but I know it is probably 20 lbs more than before I began training in 2016. </p><p>Depression can kill a person by many means; suicide, alchoholism, poor diet. In my case, I don't eat regularly - I hear there's a term for this, "atypical anorexia, where sufferers are heavy but don't consume enough calories, leading to the body acting as if it is starving by slowing metabolism to a molasses in january pace. This leads to rapid weight gain if one begins eating regular meals. Without exercise, the body stays in starvation mode. </p><p>So this is where I am. Last year, I didn't think I could still ride a bike and being as depressed as I was, I was very terrified to try. I finally did, and it was fine, but between a very very wet spring and an intensely hot summer, we didn't get out very often. But at least I knew I could do it. </p><p>Last week, we were in DC to be part of a panel discussion about our exhibition there. We walked 60 kms in the four days we were there. That was very encouraging. Today, one of the organisers sent photos from the event, and I was left absolutely SHOCKED at how I look. I know I've gained weight but I had no idea what I look like - again, no mirrors lower then collar bone around in my house. I don't recognize the person in those photos. I turned sixty in the middle of the pandemic. It took my youth, my health - mental and physical - and has left me an old, fat, very out of shape, high blood pressure, self-hating person who in no possible way resembles who I once was. </p><p>But. I called my gym to make sure I still have an active membership (yes, unused for two years, so that's $400 for nothing). I am absolutely terrified to go back. I am terrified that someone who knew me "when" will see me and say something. But I'm going to try. I feel like if I don't, even with good drugs on board, I'm going to slide back into black. </p><p>The moral of this story? If you encounter someone you used to know, and see they have changed a lot in the last three years, PLEASE don't say "wow, you've gained weight," or "you've changed a lot." PLEASE ask them "ARE YOU OK? Can I help? Tell them you care for them. Tell them they're important to you. And PLEASE stick it in your brain they are STRUGGLING, sometimes to get from day to day, and sometimes not to die. </p><p>Be kind. Be aware, be compassionate. <br /><br />(I haven't copy-edited this yet, so if you're reading and you find errors - and you will - forgive. I will fix). </p>WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-49080085586058254922022-08-02T12:37:00.002-06:002024-03-15T13:01:33.847-06:00Cults, white men, anger, and deadly viruses<p> In the last two years, social division has become a destructive force. Conspiracy thinking, anger, rhetoric, full-on lies and disinformation have infected everything; social discourse, politics, health, families. </p>This stuff - opposition to necessary health measures, bizarre beliefs the government is scurvy and not trustworthy - has become currency in certain social/cultural groups in this country, the US and the UK, and to a somewhat lesser extent all over Europe as well.<br /><br />I dislike the term "dog whistle," but it is apt: this rhetoric - they're out to get us/kill us/destroy our country - signals to others the person writing/speaking is part of that in-group and that in-group, despite being small but vocal, somehow knows all secrets. This is a core aspect of conspiracy thinking. <br /><br />It is fascinating to watch people -very often men between 25 and 50, most always white men - align with these sentiments. Curiously, this age demographic is also the most-often represented in crime stats, but that could be a case of correlation, not causation.<br /><br />This type of group-think, more than borders on cult; members/adherents must accept all of what the group is founded on. "Membership" requires dissociation from certain realities - that the "leaders" are compromised, complicated, criminal, and in the case of Lich et al, self-aggrandizing grifters - and separation from wider social groups where the group's positions are at best unpopular, and usually rejected for the extremism they espouse. One could study certain - ok, all - religions and see exactly the same constraints. <br /><br />Certainly, in private, some members of these de facto cults will question parts, or maybe even the whole of the platform. However, publicly voicing discomfort with the group's goals, questioning those, or the acts associated with those goals, results in expulsion and shunning - again, as with cults, you're either in all the way, or you're not in at all. <br /><br />As with other cults, expulsion results in loss of contact with and acceptance by the group, and the loss of self in some respects: members of these groups - and they are extremist in their own rights - define themselves through membership in the group and by the group values. Expulsion necessarily results in full, usually uncomfortable and often personally devastating reassessment of one's self and one's beliefs. When we add in aspects of "We are real men fighting for 'freedom' ", it's worse because the "who am I, " Am I a proper man," and "Are my values correct?" questions necessarily arise. <br /><br />The "cult" in the scenario here requires dedication to specific platforms:<br />Trudeau is a dictator (obviously false and ridiculous)<br />Trudeau intends to ruin the country (also false and impossible in a democratic country where people vote every four years)<br />Trudeau is a criminal (false. He might not be great at his job but that doesn't make one a criminal). <br />The pandemic is fake (ridiculous and the core fallacy)<br />Health measures (used by every country in the world to the extent a country's economy allowed) violate "freedoms." <br />Vaccines are dangerous, ineffective, deadly (despite the indisputable fact the VAST majority of people who have access to vaccinations have had at least one and something over 75 percent of people on the planet have had two or more). <br />VARS is reliable (it is absolutely not, and a disclaimer to that effect precedes the tables of "incidents") <br /><br />So. It's a cult and it's members share a number of similarities: white, male, under-educated, angry, feeling marginalised, very uncomfortable with significant social shifts (LGBTQ+ rights/Women's rights/autonomy). When that demographic is already feeling very out of control and seeing their world and their hold on "power" shift substantially, and then you add in a pandemic, and necessary health measures, this stuff is a predictable outcome. <br /><br />EDIT, March 2024:<br />This week, I happened to find a fascinating TikTok account - a political psychologist, who is an expert on the sociocultural aspects of politics, and by extension, although not his specialty, cults/religions. Via that creator, I found a metastudy of exactly the points I have covered here: Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition (https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/jost.glaser.political-conservatism-as-motivated-social-cog.pdf): <br /><br />I am no expert, and my background in sociology amounts to a diploma, but this stuff fascinates me mostly due to clear evidence since 2016 of how incredibly destructive membership in certain social groups and in religion generally are in terms of people subjugating themselves. <div><br /></div>WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-2540537387467494072020-11-16T15:13:00.003-07:002024-03-14T17:49:56.239-06:00Jealousy dreams<p> Last night I had this weird dream (aren't they all) set in the 1920s or so, where I was visiting, or staying in an old Victorian-type house. At some point, my siblings arrived - there was a reason, but I don't remember it - as did my dad, who is deceased in real life. <br /><br />My eldest step-sister is a bit of a band-wagoner and in this dream she was extolling the virtues of whatever thing she was into at the time and taking up all of my dad's attention. MY dad, her step-dad. </p><p>At some point, I challenged her for holding court. There were words exchanged to the effect that I am nothing and to get out of her way. I asked her what she knew about me, and specifically my education, and she replied, "you don't have one." This is where it came to blows; full on me pound on her until she was on the ground, PAFF PAFF PAFF in the face!</p><p>This dream occurred only a few days after me having a moment of thinking I've put much of my past behind me. Apparently not. <br /><br />Just now, as I was searching for an email I sent to a client, I found an email to my spouse from March 2009. In it, I reference "two people, who came here (my house) with lunch they'd brought. For themselves... and they thought it was funny that they'd forgotten to call me to see if I'd like lunch too. But they weren't bothered about sitting at my table, eating the lunch they didn't share and letting me clean up after them.... " This was my step-sister and my step-mother. I know. It sounds very Cinderella. <br /><br />This incident happened following my step-niece having been here for most of the previous month, me feeding and housing her so she could be in town to complete her drivers training, with not a jot of "Hey can I pay you some rent/food money?" Nada. I found out not many months later this niece was bulimic/anorexic, which accounted for why so much food disappearing while she was here - huge blocks of cheese that normally would last several weeks and full loaves of bread, which disappeared over night - and all the "coughing" I would hear every night - not coughing; puking, I realised later. Oh. And she stole things from me when she left. Nothing huge really - some irrelevant bits and bobs and an expensive pair of tweezers I'd bought for work - I was still doing hair and related at the time. But theft is theft. </p><p>This happened 11 years ago and I'm still so chapped about it - these two incidences specifically, and how often stuff like this happened and how marginalised I was - I mean, how loudly does it scream "YOU'RE NOT IMPORTANT" for my sis and istep ma to turn up to my house with a flipping COOLER full of lunch for themselves, not share, and to claim "Oh, we forgot to call and ask." Such a load of shit. I hate them for it. In my perception they both speak to me so condescendingly... I haven't seen either of them for ages, so certainly my memories are coloured by these incidences, but even recently my step-sister commented on something I'd posted on FB; her comment had the same condescending "tone" (if that can be derived from a FB post). She seems to forget I am in my 60th year... <br /><br />/rant. I'll flesh this out later. </p><p><br /></p>WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-59431150136915331672020-11-08T12:48:00.012-07:002020-11-08T14:38:48.829-07:00Ding Dong that asshole has been fired!Warning, Rant: <div><br /></div><div>All those "fuck your feelings" people are sure having some feelings now.
I agree with Biden/Harris it is time to begin repairing the immense damage the #trumptastrophe has wreaked on the US, and indeed the world, but I am going to gloat and be angry for a week (ok, probably way longer), because we KNEW. We KNEW it would go like it did - without question. </div><div><br /></div><div>Maybe we didn't know how bad it would be, but we knew it would be horrifying. </div><div><br /></div><div> The vast majority of Trump voters are non-college-educated white people, and the vast majority of those are non-college-educated white males. This is TERRIFYING. It's also the reason #trumpstain uttered "I love the uneducated." </div><div><br /></div><div>Of course he did; they wouldn't/couldn't read or research well enough to understand what was going on, AND the #orangeshitstain capitalised on that, and their fear, and their propensity to believe conspiracies, and told them endless, endless lies - including that the economy was the best it's ever been - and they are not educated enough to understand how economies work anyway, so couldn't begin to understand the catastrophe he was selling them. </div><div><br /></div><div>Meanwhile, depression-level unemployment and nearly 250,000 dead because he knew about corona in bloody NOVEMBER but carried on calling it a hoax, and spouting LETHAL lies to this demographic - which, by the way, has sustained the vast majority of those deaths...</div><div><br /></div><div>He has consorted with - courted - despots. 20 years ago, USians would have stormed the gates of the white house had the occupant so much as nodded their head towards Russia. <br /><br />But Trump? He is so compromised as a person that the only personalities he wanted to emulate were Erdogan, Kim Jong Il, Putin - and that was OK with that uneducated demographic?? Good god!
<br /><br />I am furious. I'm furious about people posting and sharing utterly garbage "news," and calling me names for providing links to show them how wrong was the information. I'm furious about the destruction of relationships and families.<br /><br />I'm FURIOUS to have had deep-seated racism and discrimination exposed in people I know and that fury is compounded by those people trying to convince me any of that has merit.
I am beyond, beyond repulsed by how anyone calling themselves "christian" could entertain that disgusting man and his disgusting family - particularly knowing he is on record - as in video - lashing out at and disparaging the religious. </div><div><br /></div><div>I have NO love for religions - plural; religion is a scourge and if we didn't know that previously, we must know it now after watching the "religious right" fawn over a child rapist (who so intimidated the two women he raped - with witnesses present - when they were 12 and 13 year old children, they have not proceeded with their cases. Yet), a sexual predator, a liar, a cheat, a philandering asshole, a confirmed criminal; "I voted for him because he is a christian," is the most serious indicator of utter paucity of ethics and morals anyone could ever utter.</div><div><br /></div><div>"But abortion!" Really??? He paid for at least two of his concubines to have abortions - and probably paid for more. </div><div><br /></div><div>"But her emails!" FuckSAKES! EVERY member of the Trump family had a private email server for the entirety of that "administration." Ivanka used hers to secure millions and millions of $$ in Chinese patents at the same time her #trumpstain father was inciting war with China. Dumb and Dumber (Jr. and Eric) used theirs for similar pursuits. </div><div><br /></div><div>"But Hillary killed 42 people." GodDAMN! Anyone who's ever had a job knows how bloody impossible it is to keep a secret in the workplace; how the fuck could Ms. Clinton kill 42 people and the facts never emerge. LIke, this level of idiocy is impossible to comprehend. </div><div><br /></div><div>"But gay marriage." It's MARRIAGE. Period. It's a legal contract; if you don't want one, don't have one. Stay out of other people's bedrooms... and by the way, the contract is nice for some, but unnecessary in the bedroom; consenting adults can have sex with any other consenting adult any way, and any time, and anywhere everyone consents to. </div><div><br /></div><div>"Oh, the supreme court..." the fallout is yet to be seen. As a side note, who paid off Kavanaugh's debt? #impeachthatlyingrapingassholenext. </div><div><br /></div><div>He didn't ignore white supremacists. He never spoke against them; he never called them out. He COURTED them. He literally consorted with them and THIS lit a BONFIRE of racists emerging into the public and KNOWING they would say whatever, to whoever, whenever - and that they could literally kill a man by putting their knee on his neck and taking almost 10 minutes to cause him to suffocate to death, and that the #cheatoshitpresident would not only NOT condemn the act, he would revile those who did. </div><div><br /></div><div>Anyone who claims the #orangecatastrophe isn't racist is fucking crazy. Not once ever did that predatory asshole ever date/marry/consort with a woman of colour - and while that is likely due to women of colour having too much self-respect to even entertain the idea of it - but it is yet another proof he's a racist. This is a fact and it is public record as are the NYC discrimination cases he lost. </div><div><br /></div><div>So yeah, people may read this and think I'm super angry and they will be absolutely right.
I am angry that my drive to be informed was reviled and pilloried. I am deeply, deeply angry my character was called into question because I was informed, terrified, disgusted.</div><div><br /></div><div>I am beyond disturbed people I know well chose to dive into idiotic Qanon garbage and that they berated me when I provided corroborated information that might have given them pause, but which they rejected without considering. I am furious people shared (and continue to do so) idiotic, unsubstantiated, massively false memes, and that they called me names (You're a bitch. You're negative. You're a loser. You're an angry libtard) when I showed them how wrong and dangerous such memes are.
</div><div><br /></div><div>Yes, I'm pissed and I'm going to be pissed for a long, long time. Suck it up. </div><div><br /></div><div>It's not my country, but I will, along with an historical number of voters, try to begin healing.</div>WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-68321304739787535402020-07-12T16:06:00.002-06:002022-09-01T11:31:50.693-06:00Raiding the Archives<div data-reddit-rtjson="{"entityMap":{},"blocks":[{"key":"a27cb","text":"I decided to do a bit of digging into my parents' past. Upon checking with the provincial archives, I discovered two things; divorce records are public domain, and secondly, anyone can order a copy. So I did. I received 123 pages of legal documents (some duplicates, so about 115 unique pages), including a hand-written letter my mother (the narc) wrote, which was entered into the record as an affidavit, and which became the basis of questions in a later deposition.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"8bcq","text":"Nothing in that letter surprised me necessarily; she has harped on about her divorce for more than 50 years.... However, what DID come as completely new information was that it was SHE who brought the divorce action. She has always claimed my father \"abandoned\" us. Completely false. I also didn't know she had threatened several times both in the letter and the deposition to leave the city with us to prevent our dad from seeing us. This was at odds with the fact she wouldn't acknowledge she was divorced and continued for years to call my dad her husband, even after he had remarried. It was so, so weird. It wasn't \"I am divorced and my former spouse is remarried,\" it was \"My husband is living with another woman and they don't have a real marriage.\" ","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"6n615","text":"It should be noted here while she was carrying on about my dad and \"his women,\" (the only woman being someone who became my step mother and was for 33 years) my mother was herself dating someone - she the sunday school teacher and he the deacon - and this resulted in her falling pregnant and them having to marry very quickly. She will have become pregnant slightly before she got her decree absolute. She's a very skilled hypocrite.... ","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"7fnno","text":"The other revelation, which makes sense of her relationship with me and with my two sibs, is the clarification of our roles to her, and the clarification - like crystal clear - she at no point saw us as humans separate from her, but as the means of expression.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"t19u","text":"She has always scapegoated me, but these documents confirmed she has done so at least since I was nine (when all the custody proceedings were in full swing), and likely before that. I don't have any particular memories but a younger-than-nine-year-old child wouldn't recognize scapegoating or gaslighting.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"6hp5e","text":"The hand-written letter and the later deposition are fascinating with respect to scapegoating though; my mother put words in my mouth: she made claims - numerous times - about what I was saying to her or telling her. For instance, she claimed I told her, and I quote, \"Daddy says you're sick, sick, sick in the head and we don't have to listen to you.\" This. Never. Happened. She makes this statement three times in the deposition as something I allegedly told her, and curiously, it is always in exactly the same format: three \"sicks\" followed by \"in the head, and \"we don't have to listen to you.\" It's weird. She claimed I told her my dad said this to us. I know this is a full lie. Anytime - up to and including when we were married adults with children of our own - we'd ask our dad what went on, his reply was always \"It's a long story.\" He never said anything more than that. ","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"e4a4","text":"My mother makes several statements about things I supposedly said to her, including that I (specifically me) wish to see less of my dad - absolutely false - and that I (again, specifically me, not my sibling and I) are disturbed by my father's \"lovemaking in the front seat of the car and in the pool.\" This specificity is so, so weird. My dad was a preacher's kid who struggled very much to find a path to remarriage, as he'd been told since birth he'd burn in hell if he committed adultery - and in Baptist world, a marriage after divorce is adultery. The idea he'd engage in \"lovemaking\" in front of his children is ridiculous. None of what she claims happened and she contradicts herself several times between the letter and the deposition.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"46ts0","text":"The short form is she has always used me to voice what she will not say herself. Where it concerned my dad and my step mother, my mother would claim I said terrible things about them, when it was she doing it. She put words in my mouth to my teachers, to a couple pastors, to people we knew. I spent most of my pre-teen and teen years being utterly confused about what was going on, because people would confront me about what I'd \"said,\" when I hadn't said. It took me ages to understand she was lying to everyone. For the record, I haven't seen her in seven years, but she still claims I'm somehow wrecking her computer... or her life. It varies.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"442m2","text":"My next youngest sibling is mentioned but once in the entirety of those documents and not at all in the hand-written letter. I\"m not sure whether this was due to her being invisible to my mother, or because she was the \"golden child\" so my mother protected her. Predictably though, as neither I, our our youngest sibling has anything to do with our mother, the golden child is now the unfortunate recipient of our mother's wrath and abuse.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"dgeet","text":"I'm after my mother's counselling records now. I'm almost certain I won't be able to find any records of her therapy sessions with my dad prior to their divorce, but I know I will find family counselling records and can access them because I was there. I've read some of them. I'm going to get copies so I can re-read.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}},{"key":"cjmpm","text":"Fascinating shit.","type":"unstyled","inlineStyleRanges":[],"entityRanges":[],"data":{}}]}"><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="58pj6-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="58pj6-0-0"><span data-offset-key="58pj6-0-0">I decided to do a bit of digging into my parents' past. Upon checking with the provincial archives, I discovered two things; divorce records are public domain, and secondly, anyone can order a copy. So I did. I received 123 pages of legal documents (some duplicates, so about 115 unique pages), including a hand-written letter my mother (the narc) wrote, which was entered into the record as an affidavit, and which became the basis of questions in a later deposition.</span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="58pj6-0-0"><span data-offset-key="58pj6-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="5p70e-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="5p70e-0-0"><span data-offset-key="5p70e-0-0">Nothing in that letter surprised me necessarily; she has harped on about her divorce for more than 50 years.... However, what DID come as completely new information was that it was SHE who brought the divorce action. She has always claimed my father "abandoned" us. Completely false. I also didn't know she had threatened several times both in the letter and the deposition to leave the city with us to prevent our dad from seeing us. This was at odds with the fact she wouldn't acknowledge she was divorced and continued for years to call my dad her husband, even after he had remarried. It was so, so weird. It wasn't "I am divorced and my former spouse is remarried," it was "My husband is living with another woman and they don't have a real marriage." </span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="5p70e-0-0"><span data-offset-key="5p70e-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="4mh1o-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="4mh1o-0-0"><span data-offset-key="4mh1o-0-0">It should be noted here while she was carrying on about my dad and "his women," (the only woman being someone who became my step mother and was for 33 years) my mother was herself dating someone - she the sunday school teacher and he the deacon - and this resulted in her falling pregnant and them having to marry very quickly. She will have become pregnant slightly before she got her decree absolute. She's a very skilled hypocrite.... </span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="4mh1o-0-0"><span data-offset-key="4mh1o-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="630ai-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="630ai-0-0"><span data-offset-key="630ai-0-0">The other revelation, which makes sense of her relationship with me and with my two sibs, is the clarification of our roles to her, and the clarification - like crystal clear - she at no point saw us as humans separate from her, but as the means of expression.</span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="630ai-0-0"><span data-offset-key="630ai-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="fhc91-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="fhc91-0-0"><span data-offset-key="fhc91-0-0">She has always scapegoated me, but these documents confirmed she has done so at least since I was nine (when all the custody proceedings were in full swing), and likely before that. I don't have any particular memories but a younger-than-nine-year-old child wouldn't recognize scapegoating or gaslighting.</span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="fhc91-0-0"><span data-offset-key="fhc91-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="54efp-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="54efp-0-0"><span data-offset-key="54efp-0-0">The hand-written letter and the later deposition are fascinating with respect to scapegoating though; my mother put words in my mouth: she made claims - numerous times - about what I was saying to her or telling her. For instance, she claimed I told her, and I quote, "Daddy says you're sick, sick, sick in the head and we don't have to listen to you." This. Never. Happened. She makes this statement three times in the deposition as something I allegedly told her, and curiously, it is always in exactly the same format: three "sicks" followed by "in the head, and "we don't have to listen to you." It's weird. She claimed I told her my dad said this to us. I know this is a full lie. Anytime - up to and including when we were married adults with children of our own - we'd ask our dad what went on, his reply was always "It's a long story." He never said anything more than that. </span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="54efp-0-0"><span data-offset-key="54efp-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="asec4-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="asec4-0-0"><span data-offset-key="asec4-0-0">My mother makes several statements about things I supposedly said to her, including that I (specifically me) wish to see less of my dad - absolutely false - and that I (again, specifically me, not my sibling and I) are disturbed by my father's "lovemaking in the front seat of the car and in the pool." This specificity is so, so weird. My dad was a preacher's kid who struggled very much to find a path to remarriage, as he'd been told since birth he'd burn in hell if he committed adultery - and in Baptist world, a marriage after divorce is adultery. The idea he'd engage in "lovemaking" in front of his children is ridiculous. None of what she claims happened and she contradicts herself several times between the letter and the deposition.</span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="asec4-0-0"><span data-offset-key="asec4-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="6v6gh-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="6v6gh-0-0"><span data-offset-key="6v6gh-0-0">The short form is she has always used me to voice what she will not say herself. Where it concerned my dad and my step mother, my mother would claim I said terrible things about them, when it was she doing it. She put words in my mouth to my teachers, to a couple pastors, to people we knew. I spent most of my pre-teen and teen years being utterly confused about what was going on, because people would confront me about what I'd "said," when I hadn't said. It took me ages to understand she was lying to everyone. For the record, I haven't seen her in seven years, but she still claims I'm somehow wrecking her computer... or her life. It varies.</span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="6v6gh-0-0"><span data-offset-key="6v6gh-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="46a2l-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="46a2l-0-0"><span data-offset-key="46a2l-0-0">My next youngest sibling is mentioned but once in the entirety of those documents and not at all in the hand-written letter. I'm not sure whether this was due to her being invisible to my mother, or because she was the "golden child" so my mother protected her. Predictably though, as neither I, nor our youngest sibling has anything to do with our mother, the golden child is now the unfortunate recipient of our mother's wrath and abuse.</span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="46a2l-0-0"><span data-offset-key="46a2l-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="gg1g-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="gg1g-0-0"><span data-offset-key="gg1g-0-0">I'm after my mother's counselling records now. I'm almost certain I won't be able to find any records of her therapy sessions with my dad prior to their divorce, but I know I will find family counselling records and can access them because I was there. I've read some of them. I'm going to get copies so I can re-read.</span></div><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="gg1g-0-0"><span data-offset-key="gg1g-0-0"><br /></span></div></div><div data-block="true" data-editor="75deeb" data-offset-key="mldq-0-0"><div class="public-DraftStyleDefault-block public-DraftStyleDefault-ltr" data-offset-key="mldq-0-0"><span data-offset-key="mldq-0-0">Fascinating shit.</span></div></div></div>WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-50352156324852002382020-02-10T18:43:00.004-07:002022-09-01T11:38:43.423-06:00Wait! You're Taking THAT out on ME??I get into loops in not-rare occasions; loops of thinking about events and what I could have, should have said at the time... had I understood what was actually happening.<br />
<br />
There are so many events I remember as being confusing and weird and incomprehensible; so many times shit would go sideways and I would have no clue why and would be standing there like I'd been hit by lightning of a sort. In retrospect, knowing what I know now...<br />
<br />
The first I remember was when my sister was 20. She was dating a guy who was quite a lad - slick, self-absorbed, and someone I suspect was treating her more like an accessory than a person, and who I think was likely cheating (I don't know this, but I knew that guy on and off for about 20 years). I was at her house one night and she began insulting me and calling me down. It still hurts thinking about it. Shortly after that, this guy was gone.<br />
<br />
Another of these instances occurred at her house after she was married and a mother of two. She and I had had some disagreement about something - I don't remember what, but these incidences were common and had been since we were little kids. I detest arguments and I detest more feeling like I've done something for which I should apologise, so that's what I set out to do. I went to her house, sat at her kitchen table, and told her I was feeling badly about our argument and that I was sorry we'd argued.<br />
<br />
One always hopes the response to an apology will be something like, "Thanks, I appreciate that." But no... her response was to fly totally off the handle stand bent towards me, pointing her finger in my face and screaming at me for 15 minutes... I left in tears, devastated.<br />
<br />Another time, I was at her house for our parent's 70th birthday. She was agitated and annoyed, and a day after this shindig emailed me some caustic edict about how I had disrespected her daughter, and terminating with "Manners. Get some."<br />
<br />
At yet another point, she was dating some guy from the US. She was angry and agitated for several months - her anger and agitation was directed at me, of course... After an alarming visit to his home, which was "off grid," down a long driveway, hidden by a huge berm and with "private property" signs lining the way - she said it was weird - she broke up with him not so much because THAT was weird but because she discovered he had broken into her on line accounts and had been deleting her male clients and male friends. Although she had been very abusive towards me during this relationship - which I knew very little about - after she dumped him, she called us - my spouse and I - to help her protect her information and block that guy... Note pattern beginning to emerge. <br />
<br />Then there was the French guy who she was dating when she hosted our parent's 70th. He also lived away and obviously wasn't going to be able to commit easily given the distance. Also included in her email about her daughter was some rant about how it was rude to speak French in a room full of non-French speakers... I dunno... is a sideline conversation unrelated to and unheard by anyone else in the room rude? <br />
<br />
And then there was a cocaine addict... She called me up and asked to go for walk... she wanted my blessing, I think, to date this guy, who she acknowledged has a huge problem but who she thought she could "support." I did NOT give "permission." I told her she was crazy, that cocaine addiction is the WORST, that those people often spend all their own money and that of anyone they're with... I don't know what happened, but given this was one of the few times I didn't end up being the brunt of her wrath, she might have taken my advice. <br />
<br />
Then there was the six-year-long relationship characterised by pathological jealousy, stalking, anger, verbal abuse... As a note, she is extremely private - fine - but secretive - not fine, so nobody knew what was going on in that relationship. Throughout this relationship, she was secretive, intense, often angry, closed off.<br /><br />About four years into the six years she dated that guy, I agreed to attend counseling with her. Prior to the day of our counselling session, it seems they had been arguing for days. I found out that day they'd been in counselling for a while. When I arrived to the appointment, I found her sobbing outside the counsellor's office. She was on the phone with him. She was so agitated that day and the counselling session became an opportunity for her to express her anger. Within 30 minutes of us beginning the "counselling" session, she was already accusing me of all sorts. This escalated into her yet again yelling at me with her finger pointed at my face. The counsellor said nothing, which I still find bizarre. My sister left shortly before the end of this session. I left in a suicidal fog and walked the 45 minutes from the office to my home.<br />
<br />Also during that relationship, another time she lit into me: she had invited my spouse and I for dinner, but called literally as we were walking out the door with food in our hands to tell us to delay our arrival for two hours. I found out later she and this stalker had been arguing for hours and she hadn't been able to prepare food... but who did she tear into? Me. Why? because I was inflexible not being able to wait around for two hours for dinner with zero notice.<br /><br />Then there was a guy who I had dated about 25 years ago. Lovely guy; kind, diligent, funny, but dumb and slightly dishonest. She knew him of course, but imagine my surprise one year when upon arriving at my step-mother's home for christmas dinner, and he opened the door.... They dated for maybe six months, but then she dumped him for the abusive stalker. In 2016, they decided to give it another go. She is intense, a personal trainer, long-distance runner, ironman competitor... he is NOT; definitely comfort, not speed. They date for a year, but without warning - literally - she turned up at his house, dumped him again. He was devastated and called me - something he hadn't done for many years - trying to understand what had happened. Two weeks after that, SHE is calling me, after been entirely out of contact for several years, asking me to call him and go pick up her running shirt, which she says he has. He is not amused .... <br />
<br />
Speed forward to yet another incident in February 2018. She was angry about issues I was not party to and couldn't do anything about. I understand things had become dire for her, financially, as she had taken on my mother's financial affairs in addition to her own. I don't know this for certain, but the details add up to her having got to a point of possibly losing both her home and the one she had purchased for my mother. When she was finally able to sell her house and rent out my mothers, and get our mother settled into new lodgings, she called me up and spent 45 minutes telling me how resentful she is (I would be too were I in her shoes - but she bought those "shoes" all by herself...) and chastising me for all the stuff I should have been doing over the last seven years - ignoring the fact the past is unchangeable and the issues were of her own making.<br />
<br />Looking back over these known incidents, I think I have identified what was going on; she has been in many unpleasant, sometimes abusive, and twice, dangerous relationships. In every instance, she has been absolutely silent about what is going on in these relationships but has taken her anger and frustration out on me. It strikes me now, from the distance of non-contact, she has used me as her target throughout her life. To be fair, she learned this from our parent, who has scapegoated me since I was a tiny child (read the previous and next posts for background). <br /><br />She has lately contacted me suggesting she owes me some apology, but she has no clue how deep is the pain I live with on the daily. No clue. She doesn't comprehend how much she's contributed to it by siding with our abusive parent, and by engaging in it herself.<br />
<br />
I don't doubt there will be another few times where she'll get herself in to a bind and call me to sort her shit out - except now the answer is NO (unless she is in physical danger, which I can't rule out because she is unfortunately stupid about men).WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-63877755180642872782019-09-29T10:54:00.002-06:002022-09-01T13:48:53.709-06:00The terror of being ill around a narcissistic parent<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">My mother has a full-on HATE for anyone who is ill - she claims it's just them needing attention. Obvious illness causes her to express rage and derision. For hours. I don't know what happened to her that she is so violently hateful of vulnerable people – although I know from personal experience, her mother - my grandmother - was much the same. <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">In my adult life, when I've been employed (I have been self-employed for almost 25 years) I had a terrible time calling in sick no matter how sick I was. I always felt I would be called out as a liar. It was terrifying. I'm in my late 50s and even now, being ill to the point I can't work really bothers me; I feel a deep sense of guilt, like I'm committing some type of fraud, and fear whatever response I might get. Some of that is my mother’s reaction to sick people generally, and how she handled me being ill specifically. </span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">As a kid, I had terrible colds; I would often be up coughing all night and exhausted for weeks from lack of sleep. I still went to school - by choice because feeling unwell at school was preferable to being in the house with her, enduring her endless rage. <br />
<br />In the worst years, I maintained my social life, being between 16 and 17 years old when the cruellest of this was going on. My mother railed on that my “never being home,” was why I was sick. That and the night air, which she claimed the doctor had told her was keeping me sick. According to her, I was doing everything I could to stay sick and keep her up at night. She argued my entire goal was to cause her as much distress as I could.</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I remember once when I was very little – maybe 8 or nine – I had a bad earache. I remember sleeping in my mother’s bed and her saying she wished she could take the pain away, and I remember that statement didn't ring true. As I grew up, she became more and more hostile towards me and particularly when I was sick. Those many nights I'd be coughing so hard, trying to stifle the sound into my pillow, she would burst into my room in the early hours screaming at me that I was keeping her awake on purpose and was trying to wake the whole house, that I was selfish. She didn't care at all how sick I was, didn't offer help or medicine, never mind I was nearly barfing from coughing so hard... It was horrible. I was sick, exhausted and terrified she'd turn up screaming at me at 3 a.m..<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">My "favourite" incident of her going ballistic because I was sick was in the week after my boyfriend visited over the winter holidays in my 12<sup>th</sup> grade year. This incident set off a chain of events that reverberated for more than 10 years after.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">That December, my boyfriend, who lived away, came to stay with us over the winter holiday. Meeting him for the first time, my mother vacillated between being sugar-sweet and trying to make an impression on him, and being a full-fledged bitch. Near the end of his stay, she did a bizarre, really weird thing - the catalyst for events to occur a week later. He and I had come in late-ish from a New Year’s Eve party; She heard us come home, but we didn’t hear her emerge from her bedroom. <br />
<br />My mother’s controlling personality and her “religion” make for her being extremely caustic about intimacy, sex and relationships – insulting, derisive, weird. We weren’t allowed to share a room – and I get it; it was her house – so before parting for the night, we did what in-love 17-year-olds do and had a little make-out session on the couch. Her sudden, “That’s enough of that!” revealed my mother standing in the dark, observing us. She then disclosed she’d been watching us for 10 minutes. It was, among the many, many weird moments of her parenting, a pinnacle of her bizarre behaviour. We were mortified, embarrassed and of course subject to her barrage of insults and abuse. I still feel sick to my stomach remembering it; it was extremely peeping-Tom of her. So gross. <br />
<br />In the days after my boyfriend left to return to his home in another province, I came down with a wicked cold. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>All the parties we’d been at and all the shared food we’d consumed were likely the source of whatever bugs I had, and as a 17-year-old, I was doubtless not as careful about hand-washing as I could have been – nor was anyone else. I was sick enough the week after the winter holiday I couldn't go back to school. My friend (a gal my mother absolutely detested for some reason - but she hated all my friends, so true to type) came over to bring homework material. </span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">My mother hadn't contacted the school to see if there was homework.... my fault that I wasn't there to get it myself, and I was just trying to get attention... endless, but I had called my friend and asked her to bring over whatever I needed to be working on. My mother absolutely freaked out at my friend came to the house. My mother cornered my friend in the front hall of our house, my friend’s back against the front door, unable – or too terrified – to leave, as my mother screamed in her face, called her names, tore into her character, shamed her. It was horrifying.</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">After four days of being at home, subject to my mother’s endless abuse, despite still being sick, I went back to school and to my job serving tables in a busy restaurant. At the end of my first night back, I left by the staff entrance where my step-dad (who was amazing) and my mother (who bullied him) were waiting. My dad often picked me up, but this time, she was with him and my suitcase was in the car. It was 9:30 at night, I was tired after my shift, still quite sick, and VERY confused about what was happening. I don’t have words for what happened next; they drove me to the hospital and left me there. <br />
<br />I have almost no memory of what had <b><i>actually</i></b> happened that night. It was so deeply traumatizing I have only vague and incorrect memories of that night even now.<br />
<br />In my memory, my parents drove to the hospital and we came together into the lobby. I went to the bathroom and came out minutes later to find my parents gone and my suitcase abandoned in the middle of the lobby. <br />
<br />I didn't know I had spent two hours with a psychiatrist – I have still no memory of these two hours or having met with or spoken to anyone. I only remember entering a typical hospital public restroom, doing my thing and leaving in the usual time it takes. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I only discovered what had happened after yet another terrifying incident of my mother’s irrational rage, occurring almost 10 years later. </span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">The incident that led me to discover almost four months of mostly-lost memory was spurred by my mother’s behaviour one particular day about two months after I got married, when she was visiting my house. </span><span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I was juggling new spouse, new home, young child, new marriage, and on this day, caring for my two-year-old daughter and my friend’s child – a one-year-old.<br />
<br />My mother has a bizarre propensity for getting herself into rages. The usual trajectory is she says something caustic or critical about another person. Whoever she has said the thing to might respond with a counter of some type, at which point she blasts off into some explosive tirade.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">As per her usual, this is exactly what happened. She launched into a rage within 30 minutes of arriving and began seething about my new spouse (who wasn't there) and my dad (definitely not there). After an hour of it, I finally couldn't take it anymore and asked her to stop slagging them off, that it wasn't fair or right and that she was not welcome to come to my house and tear into people, particularly when they weren't there, or to subject me to her shit in my own house. </span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">This made things worse by orders of magnitude. She wasn't having it and doubled down on her attacks on my spouse and my dad, and screamed she could come to my house whenever she wanted, and I couldn't stop her... So bizarre. </span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">As my mother slid into her rage, I put the kids in my bedroom in the crib, so they'd be out of danger, if not out of earshot. My mother - enraged, and irrational - and now resorting to striking me - refused to leave; she said she couldn't go because she needed her purse. I opened the front door and threw her purse onto the front lawn hoping she'd follow it. Nope. She still wouldn't leave and was in a massive, irrational frenzy. This is when I called the police</span><span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">.</span><span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;"></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">By this point, we were both screaming. I was pleading with her to leave, which became "you have to leave," which became "GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!" </span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">Suddenly, she went from full-on rage to dead calm; she spat out that she was leaving, adding her usual barrage of what a terrible person, mother, wife, daughter I was and how “everyone” knew how “sick” I was. But rather than heading out the front door, she went down the hallway, opened my bedroom door and scooped up my child. She tried to leave the house with my baby in her arms. This did not go well for her... </span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I admit I threw a few hard punches to dislodge my child. This was the first time I had retaliated with purposeful violence. My mother had struck me many, many times in the past with fists and with objects. Sidebar: once she chased me upstairs with a carving knife – one she still has. I locked myself in the second-floor bathroom, but she kicked the door in and stood there with the knife in my face, screaming at me. Terrifying. <br />
<br />I had often defended myself, or had run off, sometimes down the street in the dark - once in bare feet in winter - but I had never reacted this way - consciously, purposefully resorting to violence with the goal of hurting her. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>That she would attempt to take my child made me blind with anger.</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">It. Was. Horrifying. </span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">When the police finally arrived, she saw their vehicle pull up, threw herself into the couch beside the door, and as the officers came through the open front door, she bleated "Help me, she's trying to kill me." <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I had already told dispatch what was going on - and they'd heard her screaming her head off in the background, so the police were aware of what was going on, that she was attempting to take my child, that she was in my house and refusing to leave. The officers managed to coax her out the door and into her car, to a cacophony of her pleading and desperately trying to convince them she should take my child. </span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">As much as my mother attempting to abduct my child was horrific, as were the hours leading to that moment, and the years before, and her regular, horrifying, middle-of-the-night attacks on a sick teenager, I'm glad - strange word to use - it happened. Her rage and her having tried to take my daughter that day compelled me to find out what had transpired 10 years earlier. </span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;"><br />That incident was a turning point. I knew then I needed to comprehend what was going on and what had been going on my entire life. I knew I had to understand as much as I could about her – and, by extension, about me. The gaslighting my mother is so expert at had led me to question my fitness as a parent and my sanity from as far back as when I was in fifth grade, when she would tell me, on an almost-daily basis, she had people watching me.<br />
<br />I started calling around. I remembered a couple counselling sessions we’d attended as a “family,” and I knew which hospital they'd taken me to and knew that there must be a record. When I called the hospital, I was transferred to the psych unit. Reception confirmed there were records of that family counselling and gave me the names of the people who'd seen us. My call was then transferred to a doctor - a psychiatrist - who said he remembered me, and that he'd met with me for two hours on that night many years earlier. <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I was STUNNED to understand I'd spent two hours at the hospital with a psychiatrist. I remember walking into the hospital's main reception area, my step-dad putting my suitcase down, me walking forward into a small white bathroom and walking out soon after to find my suitcase sitting in the middle of the floor, and my parents gone. I remember calling our then-pastor, who came to pick me up, and spending two or three nights with him and his family, sleeping in their den on their pull-out.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I had no memory of anything else (even now), and asked the doctor if he was sure he had met with me. He was, and said he had a file with names, dates, and record of that meeting. Writing this now, 40 years later, I'm still amazed I remember nothing of this night beyond these incorrect details. </span><span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;"></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I requested access to the file and said I wanted to come in and read it. When I arrived to the doctor’s offices in the basement of the hospital annexe a few days later, he was at first very reluctant to let me read the file - because, he said, my mother was not there, so something about consent. I said that file was also about ME and I WAS there. He relented but said I could not copy anything, or take the file out of the small room he put me in. Fine. I had notepaper with me and I did copy. Furiously.</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">This file was a compilation of notes from the initial intake – that two hours I remember nothing of – and several family sessions. I was utterly stunned - again - to understand we had attended EIGHT family sessions. Even now, I have no memory of these sessions beyond two.<br />
<br />
</span><span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">We – my mother and I – had attended family counselling sessions in the past, usually with a minister at our church or a school counsellor. My mother had tried many times to find a counsellor who would say I was crazy, and threw around “schizophrenic” like she was some expert on mental health. <br />
<br />As a sidebar to her behaviour in counselling, this anecdote:<br />When I was 15, at her insistence, we'd met with our then-pastor. He had heard her out on a couple prior occasions, and I think she thought he was an ally. However, within 15 minutes of the start of the session, she exposed herself, her anger, her behaviour, and the abuse she was heaping on me. He identified several issues and suggested she shouldn't treat me the way she did and that things would be easier if she weren't so harsh. <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">This, predictably, resulted in furious, loud outrage on her part, and her stalking out, as was her usual response to anyone pointing out she might have contributed to the situation. She accused our pastor of attacking her, and of conspiring to ruin her reputation in the church. Bizarrely, but not unpredictably, she turned on that man with a vengeance. Although she had led the charge to see him hired as our pastor, she launched a vicious campaign to discredit him, and have him fired. <br />
<br />Her personality and tendency to extreme outbursts were well-known in our church of barely 150 people (on a good day when dessert was served), so her campaign was unsupported and unsuccessful. Her efforts resulted in him remaining with the support of the greater congregation, and her leaving our church and to begin attending the very large church up the road from us - a church she had spent many years maligning for its demographic of "all those wealthy people who look down on me." It was bizarre. <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">In my memory of the counselling sessions following the hospital incident, I was there with my mother, my step-dad, and a female counsellor. I didn't remember her name, nor do I remember how I got to these sessions or where they were held. I was living with my dad at that point, so likely he drove me, but I don't have any memory of getting there or leaving or being dropped off or picked up. <br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">In the two sessions I have in my memory, my mother was OUTRAGED. I remember her being utterly furious at the psychologist for having identified my mother’s negative, angry behaviours and their effect on me and on my siblings and step-dad; and I remember her furiously lashing out, calling the counsellor names, accusing her of making stuff up, of being unfair, of colluding with other people who were out to get her. She stalked out of both sessions claiming everyone was against her (she said this regularly, along with "You can hardly wait until I'm dead.... ").<br />
<br />As I sat in that small, windowless cubicle reading the notes written by the psychologist who did the sessions, I remember being relieved that she had identified my mother’s extensive personal issues. This was the first time I’d had anyone – particularly an adult – identify my mother’s serious mental issues. The counsellor observed my mother took no responsibility for her actions or behaviours, or anything she said; that she perceived herself as constantly set upon and persecuted by other people; that people were out to “make her look bad;” and that she was still furious at my father for leaving her. The counsellor wrote my mother was dealing with her mental distress by making me her target. In her notes, the counsellor identified my mother as intensely angry and having deep-seated feelings of maltreatment. She wrote, "The mother is scapegoating her child." Yes. Yes she was. From the time I was about two years old.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">Discovering the truth about the night my parents left me at the hospital, and knowing the extent of counselling, how many sessions there were, identification of my mother's serious personality issues, and understanding - finally - those were not my fault, and knowing the extent of them was horrifying but a relief. <br />
<br />That counsellor wrote my "behaviour" issues, which she identified as my acting out as a means of self-preservation, were a direct result of my mother's scapegoating.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: black; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">I began to heal after that. Very slowly. I was completely out of contact with my mother for almost two years after that, but there were many relapses, many times I tried to have a relationship with her; many, many more of her outrages, her abuses, her irrational anger, her tearing me to bits, and the time she lashed out at my parenting with “You’re a terrible mother; you don’t feed your children potatoes.” Yes, she actually said that. That comment caused a huge crack in the “matrix.” That comment, and my mother’s apparent narcissism, irrational, unpredictable, abusive behaviour are the foundation for the vast raft of reasons for our present reality. <br />
<br />When my children were in their early teens, she began directing her anger and treachery towards them in person, and in emails. She told them they were “heathens” and that she was sorry they would never go to heaven. In emails, she wrote things like, "I don't know why you hang around those people who hate me and want me dead." Six years ago, she finally, terminally, crossed the line. (Chapter six million... to follow).</span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0in; vertical-align: baseline;">
<span face=""calibri light" , sans-serif" style="color: #1a1a1b; mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin; mso-bidi-theme-font: major-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;">Am I still amazed that I have no memories of that hospital visit and six of the eight counselling sessions? YES. Do I still struggle with taking time out when I’m ill? Yes. Do I feel guilt about being out of contact with my mother? Yes. <br />
<br />But I understand that guilt and why it is misdirected. The guilt I feel is attached to a mythical "good, loving mother" who doesn't exist, but who I have abandoned. Six years ago, when I finally hit that terminal wall and suspended contact with my mother, that guilt was suffocating. My extrication left my sibling with care and feeding of this abusive woman, who has since turned her abuse on this sibling – the was-golden-child (chapter six-million-two-hundred to follow). For the record, there are three of us siblings. The other one literally fled the country, where they have a “relationship” with our mother from a safe distance (chapter six-million-three-hundred to follow).<br />
<br />In the last three or four years, I've come to understand this guilt and its context; every child’s enduring wish for a good mother who cares about them, is kind and loving, and engaged in a caring, unobtrusive way. However, in my case, this mother does not exist and never has. I finally understand there is nothing at all I can do to elicit the good mother. I can let go of feeling guilty for abandoning what is a fantasy mother who doesn’t, and never did exist. The real thing has serious personality challenges that no amount of me "being good" will fix. It took me 50 years to get to this point, many bouts of deep, terrifying depression, much self-flagellation and self-hate, but I am finally out. </span></div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-20701286166132891122019-09-16T14:42:00.001-06:002020-11-08T14:35:41.602-07:00I feel all the time but I don't know what I'm feeling... <span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">One of the most difficult things about being the child of a narcissist (or someone with borderline personality disorder - BPD) is untangling emotions, understanding what one is feeling, why, if the emotion is attached to something, someone, some event, or if one is generalizing.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">As I sit here this morning, I have an intense feeling of upset, slight anger, foreboding, fear, frustration. About what? I haven't untied all that yet.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">In the list:</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I've had a client contact me about a project I've tried three times to complete for them. They must contact their client to make sure the site is prepared, and they haven't. Frustrating but I can't fix it for them - they drop the ball but I take the hit.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I have a friend needing help moving stuff, which I'm happy to do, but I'm a third party to the machinations, so sitting about waiting on that stuff to be coordinated.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I'm travelling with a group next month, but not positive of accommodations, and unhappy about a potential addition of $500 US to my costs resulting from my having done a good deed...</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I'm pissed off we've had dead air from an organization we've been trying to contact since May this year. This angers me so much because their behaviour is ridiculously unprofessional and we're left wondering what we've done.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I'm bored; work is too quiet thanks to a continuing sluggish economy.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I'm annoyed with myself for procrastinating over several need-to-be-completed items that will take only a few hours to finish.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I'm so very angry at my sibling over their handling of a change to our parent's living situation and that sibling's demands for money but a refusal to say WHY.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I'm also furious at this sibling's deep unwillingness to be clear about what is going on, particularly, as I understand it, they were on the verge of losing their home, and the home our parent was living in. This sibling chose to be angry and confrontational despite our many offers of help.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">And I'm furious at another sibling for having taken nearly half a million from our parent and lost it all. Every damned penny of it, and $45K from an investor, and $80K from another person's parent too... this is a whole other story, none of which I was part of, except where I suggested, strongly, to my narcissitic parent they should make sure their investment is secured - which they didn't, so yeah, near poverty. </span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I'm struggling to figure out which feelings go where and if they're even worth entertaining. And I'm sick to my stomach and I don't know why, and I know I'm pretty close to burying my head in the sand that is Reddit, or in my addictive craft habit. I have lately come to understand how I use these as "treatment" of a sort.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">Growing up as the child of a narcissist is a distinctly unbalancing experience. There's no variance in how the narcissist approaches whatever it is they're angry about - and they're always angry about something.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">It is never their fault and they always react on maximum volume, no matter how infinitesimal whatever the issue might be. There is no emotion one can feel and/or express the narcissist won't somehow attack, minimize, misrepresent.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">They can spend hours or days haranguing, but when the harangued person finally crumbles into tears, or resorts to rage, the narcissist doubles down. There's no emotion one can feel or express that the narcissist will accept as valid; emotion is always an attack on the narcissist no matter what has precipitated that emotion.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">When one is subjected to this from an early age, to be blunt, it fucks you up.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">The net effect, particularly when all this starts when one is a tiny kid (2 years old in my case) is, as an adult, the victim often - almost always - misinterprets what people are saying, or what they mean by what they're saying. I am, as a rule, confused and uncomfortable about where my emotions are coming from and I have a difficult time understanding other people's emotions. I am aware I read in other people's feelings, but am terrified to ask if they're actually feeling the way I think.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I usually default to believing they're angry, or they detest me - this being a result of my parent's regular assertion when I was young that they had "people" watching me all day, every day, whether I was at school or with friends (I had so few friends; my trust was shattered at such a young age, and I never knew who these "people" were).</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I always feel as if I've done something terrible - a persistent, ungrounded foreboding. Someone saying, "Hey can I talk to you for a second," releases and INTENSE fear response in me. Always. You will understand in employment situations, where people must collaborate many times a day, the "Can I talk to you?" thing made my work environments unbearable and terrifying. For the record, I work for myself now and have mostly done so for about 25 years.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I struggle to let things roll off me and to understand when something needs a response, or when there is no point in even thinking about it, let alone responding to it. I am never confident in whether I have appropriately dealt with a problem, or responded correctly to a question, or an issue. I feel most of the time I've made things far worse, by addressing them at all.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">This weirdness has not been helped by the couple occasions when I've been blamed for something completely out of my control; once a pipe burst in a room I was in, and the woman of the house - my former spouse's mother - came steaming down the stairs yelling "what did you do?" at me. I was sitting there, stunned that water was suddenly pouring out of a wall behind all the shit she had stacked up there, having had no clue there were pipes there.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I have three adult children and I am fascinated (and envious in a sense) by how expertly they deal with the day-to-day issues they have, and how well they solve work-related stuff, and by their excellent friendships - with each other and with actual friends. I'm also amazed I managed to raise three kids who can do that. I'm very glad my distinct issues seem not to have transferred to them. They're great collaborators and skilled at conflict management and resolution.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I feel unbalanced most of the time where it concerns my emotions: I'm either flat, meaning I feel nothing, or experience far less emotion than someone else might in the same situation, or I'm often full-on torn apart by a comment or event someone else might barely register.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">I feel I am always letting people down, never doing the best I can do, cutting corners, being shitty. This is my </span>narcissistic<span style="font-family: inherit;"> parent speaking, and I know it, but this horror began when I was very young.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: small;">Although I know it isn't logical, it is deeply internalized. I've heard it said children raised in such environments are permanently-affected, as the trauma causes changes to their DNA. I haven't read too much on the subject, but colloquially, I'd claim it true.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">Where it concerns my siblings, my emotions are particularly hard to manage; I shift between concern for them - they were victimized as much as I was, in different ways - and anger towards them for not taking off the blinders they find so comfortable.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I am very concerned for my one sibling, as they are enmeshed in a not-at-all-positive way with our joint torturer/parent. I have deep concerns as to how this sib will react to this parent's death (this parent being 90 years old presently), and how they will adjust to the absence of this still-narcissistic, parent who has, I understand, added stalking-type behaviours to their contact with this sibling.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">At the same time, I am beyond furious at this sibling - for how they have scapegoated me, in concert with our parent, for more than 45 years, how they fail utterly to see how, more and more, they are exhibiting the same characteristics of this parent (and of this parent's own also-narcissistic/BPD parent), for how they protect our abusive parent, how they prey on me for help, but reject any help offered - except when they are in dire straights - and ignore me entirely when whatever crisis they may be having has been solved. Since early this year, my overriding emotion is a desire to literally tie this sibling to a chair and punch them until they feel the deep pain I've felt my entire life.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">The other sibling ... I also feel so much fury and anger towards them. I cannot comprehend how they can sleep at all, let alone live day-to-day knowing they are the one-and-only reason none of us will have an inheritance, and why the other sibling has been footing the bills - all of them - for this horrifying parent we share. This sibling has exhibited a bizarre vacillation between having near-murderous feelings toward this parent and attempting to have a relationship with them. For the record, their joint relationship has been spectacularly and catastrophically unstable for most of this sibling's 47 years.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">Well-meaning people will often say, "Just let it go," but they truly do not comprehend how children of narcissists experience emotion, and how confused and often fearful those children (who may be adults in their late 50s) are. If we're struggling to wade through a lifetime of it, imagine how little a probably-caring but uneducated person might understand.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">The net effect of my inability to appropriately parse and navigate my emotions has been the development - among several issues - of profound body dysmorphia to the point of obsession as a stand-in for dealing with the moving parts.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">This dysmorphia coalesced on a specific day when I was 13 years old thanks to an off-hand comment made by a good friend, who I know meant absolutely nothing by it. I was going down the stairs in our school, heading to class - she being on the stair directly behind me - when she made a comment about the structure of my hips and butt. I can remember that moment and I were I in that school, I could walk to the exact place - the exact stair I was on - when she made the comment.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">Literally from that moment on, this dysmorphia has been a daily, draining, torturous fixture in my waking life. It is the first thing on my mind when I wake - and I wake three or four times a night - and the last thing on my mind before I fall asleep. It doesn't help my sibling is a fitness professional (driven to some extent as a means for them to cope with their own demons I suppose), who has no shame about shaming me and how I look, whether that be the body scan or an insulting comment.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">This dysmorphia is coupled with an ever-growing fear of being in public looking like I do. This is compounded by my having competed in a fitness competition four years ago, and then returning to a normal weight and average strength for a person of my age. Hating how I look also keeps me out of the gym: I'm embarrassed to be "normal" after having become so fit and strong.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">In my case, that bucket-list item, the competition, was approached as a means of, "SEE! I'm not gross!" rather than something I pursued purely on my own terms, for my own reasons. I'm now fighting with entrenched dysmorphia made worse by having become very fit and quite thin for that competition, but not having the tools to deal with being a normally-sized person of my age. On the rare occasion I see my sibling, their habit of body-scanning me, and their unshielded look of disgust after that ... it doesn't help, and it makes me want to injure them all the more. Vicious circle for sure.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">If you're reading this and wondering why I don't get help, I assure you I have tried. I have used - with some success - one of the on-line counselling services when the issues with my sibling were such I was feeling suicidal. It was very helpful to have a faceless, but experienced psychologist willing to read my long accounts, and make observations and suggestions. To not have to be face-to-face where he could see me, how I look, and to have counselling sessions not diluted by my terror over how I look - it was a good solution.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I have recently sought out mental healthcare services; however, despite physical health care being easy to access and covered under the country's health care plan, mental health services are not covered and are very costly, or if provided on a sliding scale, not dependable.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I need care several times a week for at least a year, but at a cost of about $2000/month, it's impossible to afford. It is not for a lack of desire and willingness to get help; it's a literal inability to afford the care I need. The doctor I saw recently diagnosed me with severe anxiety - filed under "No shit, Sherlock," - and prescribed a specific medication to help. The drug she prescribed has a significant side effect - predictable weight gain. Definitely no bueno. Like 1000 percent no bueno.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I am not in contact with my siblings or my parent - and yes, this is extreme, highly guilt-inducing, and difficult to swallow. I know, however, contact with this parent is poisonous, and contact - currently anyway - with the siblings is likely going to affect me negatively.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I know what it's like to have to talk myself out of walking into traffic or driving into a semi - it is utterly, utterly terrifying to be at that point and to know what might trigger that again, and how bloody close - twice in the last eight years - I came to saying "aw, fuck it," and driving across the line on purpose, despite knowing doing so would end my intense pain but would ruin my own children's and partner's lives.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I cannot stress this enough; when someone is in THAT much despair and so desperate to end their own pain, and they know doing so will have a massive, permanent effect on their loved ones, you MUST understand how unbearable it has become for them.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">Neither of these siblings is willing to acknowledge their parts in any of it. They are, at times, like starving dogs with respect to goading me. One of them - maybe both - seems to enjoy pushing me to the point of pure, blinding despair. I don't know what they get out of it but it seems to satisfy something for them. Then again, they learned at the feet of the master, given our parent was ravenous for the high of torturing (in an emotional way) me, teaching them how to scapegoat, and expert at alienating us siblings one from the other. The effects of this parent's efforts are cell-deep and permanent.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">A bit of advice for people who like to give advice, particularly to people like me: Just don't.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-size: small;">I guarantee you, if you had a happy or reasonably stable childhood, you cannot possibly understand the chamber of horrors that is a childhood overseen by an angry, unfulfilled narcissistic parent whose sole purpose in life is to create as much pain, despair, fear, sadness as possible as some means of obtaining power, and edifying themselves.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: large;"><br /></span>WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-82691493924553161982019-02-12T17:52:00.007-07:002024-03-15T12:55:33.141-06:00Nobody was paying attention.... Last week, my mother moved from her two-story home into a supported living facility - much smaller digs - and the excavation was initiated. Somehow, she has managed to acquire enough stuff for four families, despite being very elderly and a widow....<br />
<br />
Among all this stuff, surprisingly, is a small archive of my report cards from a couple grades of elementary school, two from junior high school and one year of high school.<br />
<br />
It was riveting and heart-wrenching to read the comments on those reports - all hand-written, dating back as far as 1966.<br />
<br />
Our home life was, shall we say, disturbed. My parents fought - not regularly, but spectacularly - and finally separated when I was maybe five, which is the year I started kindergarten. Their relationship was acrimonious. Actually, not "their;" her relationship with him. Brutal. As it was the 60s, we, my younger sister and I, stayed with our mother. My mother has the most spectacular case of narcissism I've ever met, although I didn't know that until maybe 10 years ago. Such affected people do not great parents make....<br />
<br />
I read those hand-written comments with a shifting mix of chagrin, anger, embarrassment, and wonder. In all those years, did not one single person - teacher, librarian, principal - ever wonder what was going on? It was the 60s/70s and people didn't meddle back then - certainly not teachers; they had enough on their plates between planning lessons, working five days a week and doing everything by hand, so probably paying attention to the more personal aspects of their students' lives was too far outside their area of attention. I understand that. But.<br />
<br />
See, I grew up in total, daily chaos. My mother was always angry about something, angry at me, angry at what I was wearing, how my hair was, who my friends were, how I spoke and acted... you name it, she found something in it to be angry about. I was, until 2013, her scapegoat. I think I still am, but I am out of contact now, so whatever she might say about me, I don't hear, exept for the occasional vitriolic, hateful email she writes that someone forwards to me....<br />
<br />
When I was in second grade, the bulk of the comments on my report cards were that I was distracted, occasionally confrontational, not doing well, rushed, missing fundamentals. At home? M mother would pick a fight with me every morning. For a period of a month (I was little; could have been a week, could have been three months; it was fucking terrifying, however long) and then threaten to send me to boarding school. She would pick up the phone in the kitchen and pretend to make calls to some school. The second she started for the phone, I would run upstairs to her bedroom and pick up the handset of the bright orange phone sitting on the table beside her bed to prevent her from making the call. It was terrifying. <br />
<br />
So yeah, I was distracted, because I was terrified of what might be happening - what my mother might be doing or calling or planning during the day, or what might happen when I came home after school. It wasn't a maybe; it was a for-sure. If the what-might-happen was relative peace, it was a rarity that was proof of the rule, and the calm before a certain storm later, or the next day, or....<br />
<br />
By the time I was in fifth grade, her terror campaign was well established and deeply rooted. My mother reminded me on a regular basis she had people watching me and reporting back to her about what I was up to during the day. Can you imagine what it's like to be an eleven-year-old child who is convinced she's being watched all day, every day??? Like, who do you trust?!<br />
<br />
During all this chaos my mother remarried. He was excellent. Really. We'd known him since we were born so he wasn't a stranger at all. He married my mother (the sunday school teacher) because, despite her outwardly puritanical, judgemental views on sex and relationships, they were screwing around and she became pregnant. If you're the puritanical, once-divorced sunday school teacher in a baptist church, in the 70s, you must, at all costs, keep up the appearances.... <br />
<br />
The upside was he was a great dad and we got a little sister out of it. The downside is we got a little sister out of it and I went from being my mother's constant target to being that, <i>and</i> the scapegoat for ANYTHING she didn't like - my younger sister's teenage behaviour, and anything that our new baby sister did that my mother didn't like. Apparently, I was going around behind her back "teaching them to misbehave." That accusation continued up to about 10 years ago... the 'baby' was 45 years old by then....<br />
<br />
When I was in junior high, I was bullied. Endlessly. One guy put his foot in my back and pushed me down a flight of stairs. Later, he took to following me home. In eighth grade, my so-called best friend decided she was furious at me because I'd made one other friend, so she chased me home... with a stick. Then she never spoke to me again. One day couple of girls, twins, waited for me outside the school, the back side, in a corner not visible to the street or windows, threatened me, pushed me off my moving bike, attempted to steal my bike. In home Ec. class, someone stole my bra while I was trying on a dress I'd made in that class. An hour later, I was horrified to see the boys kicking my bra down the hallway. A boy in several of my classes took any opportunity he could to harass me. One day he decided he hated me and, right outside our science class, he pulled a huge clump of hair out of my head - hurt so much. I wacked him with my binder - and was hauled into the office and chastised for the "friends" I kept. A few months later, he slapped me across the face in full view of an auditorium of kids.... I was ridiculed for my hair, my size, my build. You name it, it was up for target practice. At any point did any teacher or parent step in? Nope.<br />
<br />
My mother, of course, was carrying on as "normal" which meant I was never sure what would be on the other side of the front door when I came home after school, but it was never good. Once, when I was 13, it was really, really bad: she was in a fury over how I was doing the dishes - criticizing absolutely everything to the point I began screaming at her to leave alone (this kind of harassment was the usual - almost any time she screamed us into cleaning up, she'd also spend the entire time screaming it wasn't good enough). <br />
<br />
This time, she picked up a knife - a 12-inch long, bone-handled, serrated knife she had beside the stove (which, by the way, she was still using 40 years later). She was terrifying anyway, but armed? Holy shit ... so I raced out of the kitchen, up the stairs into the bathroom and locked the door. She kicked the door in and held that knife to my face - in our second-floor bathroom with one of those 60s-style wide side to side, narrow top to bottom windows high up in the wall. You don't know terror until you're pinned against a wall with your crazy-ass mother shaking a knife to your face and threatening you, and there's no escape.<br />
<br />
So yeah, my schooling suffered. I was angry. I was scared. I daydreamed. I escaped into a book or up into my head. I looked for any possible means of escape - which, for the record, did not include drugs or alcohol.<br />
<br />
Not a single teacher ever asked if I was ok. Not one. In twelve years of school, how many teachers does one have? 60? I know some of this had to do with the era - people didn't meddle and given divorce was such a horrifying event still - common enough but still considered a morally-contentious choice.<br />
<br />
Hilariously/sadly/confusingly, my mother used to write comments back to the teachers on those report cards - it was always their fault I wasn't doing well, and true to her character, she was an exemplary parent, and had expectations for everyone's behaviour. As she'd been a teacher herself, she was bizarrely judgmental, and her imperviousness was more pronounced.<br />
<br />
In fifth and sixth grades, I volunteered as a library page in my school. I LOVED that job. The school was always quiet - mornings, 7:30 to 8:30 or so and sometimes after school. It was safe, and provided a legit means of being out of the house. And I really liked the librarian, Mrs. Woods. Like, a LOT. She always had a smile on. She was nice.<br />
<br />
Even that bubble was burst, though. When I was 28 years old, I was out for groceries with my two babies - I think I was probably pregnant with my third at the time - and ran into Mrs. Woods. I was really happy to see her. During the conversation, I made the fatal mistake (being a stay-at-home mom at the time and it being the late 80s and being that mothering wasn't necessarily considered a job), of replying "not much" to her question of "What are you doing these days." Her reply was, "Well, you always were a bit lazy." I was DEVASTATED. I wasn't, and I'm not now, lazy; I was an eleven-year-old child with a chaotic, scary home life turning up almost every morning for two school years to shelve books, to get some peace and stability.<br />
<br />
I still struggle day-to-day with feeling like I belong, like I have the right to belong, with feeling like I'm not contributing to anything, like I'm failing, like random shit that happens is my fault; like with "bad things wouldn't happen if I weren't around;" with living.<br />
<br />
With LIVING. <br />
<br />
There was an "into traffic" incident a few years ago - the second, the first being the result of agreeing to go to counselling with my sister, who spent an hour of a two-hour session with her finger in my face, screaming at me. The first "into traffic" incident scared me a LOT and took two weeks to come down from. The second was even worse. I was driving alone on the highway and I struggled for the entire 90 minutes to not drive across the centre line. Semi-trucks are big. The driver is up high. It would be a bump for them. That's where I was in my head for and hour and a half....<br />
<br />
My family members don't think I hear their whispers of "well, you know how she is." They don't know how devastating their petty little comments are. They don't acknowledge their actions and they don't understand they scapegoat me, or, if they do, they're somehow justifying such lifelong abuse.<br />
<br />
My sister continues to scapegoat me - this month of moving my mother gave her the opportunity to unload her resentment on me - and to be fair, this time she copped to it; she called me to tell me how resentful she is (except she ignores she chose the situation she's in, and that I had zero input into it), so at least there's that - but yet again, after her having unleashed on me, demanding money from me, but refusing to let me understand what she, or my mother actually need, we're back to radio silence and, "Well, you know how she is."<br />
<br />
No, they don't know how "she" is, because they don't give a real fuck.<br />
<br />
It took me years and years and years, not a little therapy, and total non-contact to get to a place of reasonably good functioning, but there are still moments or interactions that throw me into chaos.<br />
<div>
<br /></div>
But at least now I have all these report cards spelling out all my faults and failings - why would I be surprised my mother kept them - that will reinforce just how separate I am from the family and how invisible I was at school, and how important it is for my family members to maintain me as the scapegoat.<br /><br />Update, November 2020:<br />Since I wrote this, my spouse has gone to bat for me with both my siblings. He has always been firmly in my court, right at my side. The shit he's seen and put up with... a lesser man would have been out. His having met with them/spoken to them and speaking for me - bluntly - took a huge weight off me and, I think, may have given them a level of insight they were surprised by and needed to hear. <br /><br />Also since then, I engaged a pretty great counsellor, and finally got a diagnosis - CPTSD: complex PTSD. And also since then, I have acquired a copy of our parents' divorce records (these are public and accessible to anyone who wants them, as it turns out), which was unbelievably enlightening, and brought my mother's - and indeed the family's - scapegoating into clear focus. More about this here:<br />https://stupid-files.blogspot.com/2020/07/raiding-archives.html<br />
<br />WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-25507500800895511182017-05-05T15:20:00.001-06:002020-11-08T13:25:35.777-07:00The dogs of hell. #unleashed<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gtJB4Jhsxt0/X6hUM1eTPLI/AAAAAAAAw5c/z9LK6B0A0J8cbRqxBbdASv1S1gHYj4l5wCLcBGAsYHQ/s500/16387191_1204285479669669_3071077226143862162_n.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="379" data-original-width="500" src="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gtJB4Jhsxt0/X6hUM1eTPLI/AAAAAAAAw5c/z9LK6B0A0J8cbRqxBbdASv1S1gHYj4l5wCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/16387191_1204285479669669_3071077226143862162_n.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br />.... you <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_0">narcissistic</span>, conceited, self-centred old boot! In almost 80 years what have you done? What have you contributed besides three girls who never had a mother but who suffered through your endless, ridiculous fits and tantrums; who lost their fathers - yes, two of them - due to your fucked up world view; whose childhoods..... never mind: what childhoods?<br />
<br />
And now that you've achieved (yet again on the backs of others, having done little to contribute and nothing to deserve) living quarters in a place you can show off from, you're still making <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_1">every one's</span> life a living fucking hell! Are you never ever satisfied? And for the record; nobody cares a damn about where you live, how big 'your' house is, how 'expensive all these horses are' or about your 'rich clients.' Nothing. Not one bit do we care about any of that. Nobody does. Only you. And no, none of that has anything to do with you. You're still a fucked up, mean, old woman.<br />
<br />
You're stupid beyond comprehension to believe that any of that has anything to do with you or any reflection on you. You are nothing to anyone beyond being the crazy, bitch of an old lady who lives in that house. Yeah, the house that most people have begun avoiding just to stay away from you.<br />
<br />
Here's the truth you old bitch. You are a joke. Full on. There's barely a soul whose spent more than a day with you who doesn't know you're as fake as a wooden nickel and <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_2">measurably</span> less useful. There isn't a soul who doesn't know you're a poser and a liar and a <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_3">conceited</span> idiot.<br />
<br />
Are you three years old? Are you still that spoiled bratty little kid? Fuck! Grow up already! Isn't it time you made some steps toward being a human rather than the most disgusting, painful, stinking putrid boil on all our asses? Is this your legacy? You're going to go down in history as one of the most despised people there ever was?<br />
<br />
What did you ever do for anyone?<br />
<br />
Your kids? You spent years and years and years poisoning them against others - their dad! Their grandparents; their aunts and uncles; their cousins and even them against themselves, and you spent years poisoning others against them! Who does that to their own children? You could write a book on how to abuse, isolate and ruin a child.<br />
<br />
We never learned to love. Oh sure, we heard all about it - you stuffed your stupid false pack of religious lies down out throats hard enough to choke the life and spirit out of us but we never saw anything even remotely close to 'love' from you. You have always been to busy making everything, every event about you. You are the 100% <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_4">pur</span> <span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_5">laine</span> version of a <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_6">narcissistic</span> asshole.<br />
<br />
You taught us how to never trust, never believe -even in ourselves: oh never mind; you never gave us any reason there was anything about us to believe in. We were the shite that trailed about your house making a wreck of your life. Yeah. Forgot.<br />
<br />
<span class="blsp-spelling-error" id="SPELLING_ERROR_7">Everything's</span> about you. Everything that goes 'wrong' is about you; everything that anyone does is to 'make you look bad.' Let me tell you this: you do a fine, fine job all by yourself; you have not for one second needed anyone else to make you look bad.<br />
<br />
And now you've resorted to 11 p.m. temper tantrums forcing your daughter, who's been working 6 a.m to 11 p.m. for weeks, to come chasing after you so you don't get your idiotic ass killed on the highway because you're such a fucking attention-seeking baby! And then you take two or three hours of another daughter's time having yet another poor-me tantrum? Fuck you. You know why they didn't call me??? Because I will tell you the truth.<br />
<br />
You're the worst of the worst. We put up with you. <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_8">Tolerate</span>. That is it. We do NOT like you and there's no way we've even thought about loving you. You're less <span class="blsp-spelling-corrected" id="SPELLING_ERROR_9">lovable</span> than a ton of squashed maggots.<br />
<br />
Here's the reality that you choose to blind yourself to.<br />
You've been married to TWO pretty decent, hard-working men, both of whom provided everything for you and your children. You haven't worked a full day since something like the spring of 1961. Busy work does not count and neither does the copious time you've spend meddling in other people's lives and trash bins! What the hell is up with that!?<br />
<br />
You have three children who are all blessed with great minds and health and strength but whose spirits you stomped and killed over and over again because you are incapable of tolerating anything you perceive as competition, even from a two year old baby.<br />
<br />
You have lived in a wonderful home - that someone else paid for; you now live in another wonderful home - that someone else is paying for; yet, you have never been happy because neither home has been big enough or rich enough for full of enough costly things THINGS! that you could show off, as if those THINGS somehow make you a decent person in any respect.<br />
<br />
You have an excellent education that you've squandered.<br />
<br />
You've had friends, all of whom you've alienated at best and many of whom you've caused to hate you, despise you, distrust you and laugh at you.<br />
<br />
The one thing that saves me from hating you entirely is that I'm sure you know, somewhere in your fucked up, denial-bound mind that you've created this hell and now you have to maintain it. Anything else would require you to be honest to yourself and about yourself and you are far too self-centred and false to even consider that option, so hell for all concerned it is.<br />
<br />
I'm sure you wish, as much as I do, that you were dead. That is the one thing that saves you and - you can take some of your weird brand of comfort in this - keeps us bound in the hell you seems so determined to keep burning.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-43767913377049230712017-05-05T15:15:00.000-06:002017-05-05T15:15:27.472-06:00Dear LGBTQ....<div style="text-align: justify;">
Dear Non-binary people;</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<a href="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v2qSufKZWwI/SBDpB8VlspI/AAAAAAAAAfg/rYwB8sh9T8QFMu_Kfqov1glRSuqGvNcawCPcB/s1600/thumb.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="316" src="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v2qSufKZWwI/SBDpB8VlspI/AAAAAAAAAfg/rYwB8sh9T8QFMu_Kfqov1glRSuqGvNcawCPcB/s320/thumb.jpg" width="320" /></a>I get it. You struggle: for recognition; for equality; for safety; for compassion; for acceptance. I get it, and I know it has been, and will continue to be for some time yet, probably, difficult and frustrating. <br /><br />I also get it you hate labels. You don't want to be different, outsiders, unacceptable, sinners, disgusting... labels suck. You're human. <br /><br />So when you create new terms - labels - for me, in your terminology CIS-gendered, you apply the same de-humanising tactics you're desperate to stop. Because I'm also human. That I don't occupy any of the letters of LGBTQ does not render me weird or lesser. <br /><br />I get it; you don't want to be marginalized<br /><br />Labels blow. For everyone. The only viable label is HUMAN. </div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
or invisible, but creating labels for people whose lifestyles, genders, genitals, orientations you don't like, understand or live, doesn't make your struggle easier. </div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-54812921778942885652016-02-12T11:32:00.001-07:002016-02-12T12:54:11.174-07:00Street Preacher's dilemma: Claims evidence, but is pissed off when asked to show it.... <span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><b><span style="font-size: small;">UPDATE:</span></b></span><span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Frustratingly, the person with whom I had this conversation never replied to these questions, became very upset to the point of hostility and blocked further communication. <br /><br />Prior to runnin<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">g off to hide from questions he was unwilling or incapable of answering (mostly because I think he was pretty uncomfortable with the answers he might have had to come up with), he did say I had been pretty convincing and were he looking to leave religion, he'd have to consider this stuff. I asked him exactly what he would be incapable of doing, with respect to the street people he works with, if he had no religion at all: he did reply "Nothing," but qualified it all with stuff I no longer have access too.... bummer.<br /><br />Also unfortunately, and this is my error, because he blocked me, the rest of the conversation is no longer visible. I'm annoyed by that, as I'm quoting him without evidence here. Not fully kosher. </span><br /><br />He continues to work as a street preacher - part of a group that is vocally anti-human with respect to LGBT people, and implicated in several legal proceedings in this city, as a result of his group entering City Hall in a manner City Hall found threatening, and which caused City Hall to be evacuated and locked down more than 30 times. <br /><br />Also, I'm sorry to report, this guy has doubled down and become even more entrenched. His Facebook is (sorry, mean) <span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;">laughable. </span>His group has engaged in such stupid tactics including engaging one of their more stupid members, a bus driver, to refuse to drive a bus with ads from the LGBT community on the outside, as it somehow removed his freedom of religion (it does not in any way, and he didn't have any issues driving buses with ads for birth control, or bars that use blatantly sexual means to advertise)... so dumb.. and then that pawn tried to run for mayor. I think he had about 60 votes, all from his church pals. Idiotic. <br /><br />Anyway, if you are a religious person, and you're interested in answering those questions below, I'd be super fascinated to have your answers.</span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "verdana" , sans-serif;"><span style="font-family: "arial" , "helvetica" , sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">__________________________________________________________________ </span></span></span><br />
<br />
<ul aria-atomic="false" aria-live="polite" aria-relevant="additions" class="uiList _2ne _4kg" id="webMessengerRecentMessages" style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.9636354446411px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1409777090728:9266d129c74a04bd72" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<b class="_36" style="display: block; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 1px 0px 4px;"><span style="line-height: 1.38; white-space: pre-wrap;">Hey ME, I replied to your comment on the 'march for Jesus' post. I hope we can have a chat as I have gone down many roads in my research, including the 'Jesus is copied from other Gods' theories, you may not be aware that even secular historians have debunked those theories and yet they still float around. Anyway I would love to chat with you on these subjects and more. I love skeptics. FYI I'm not a church going Christian, and we would probably agree on our opinions of that lot.</span></b><br />
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<span class="null">
</span></div>
<div class="_1yr" style="float: right; margin-left: 4px;">
<span class="_2oy" style="float: right;"></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="_sq">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="_2n3" style="border-top-color: rgb(232, 232, 232); border-top-style: solid; border-width: 1px 0px 0px; color: #bfbfbf; font-size: 11px; margin: 17px 20px 2px; text-align: center;"><abbr class="timestamp" data-jsid="timestamp" data-utime="0" style="border-bottom-style: none; padding: 0px 5px; position: relative; top: -8px;">Today</abbr></li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412009575590:64b9c96bc75d06fa02" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div class="rfloat _ohf" style="float: right;">
<a class="_b9" data-hovercard-instant="1" data-hovercard-offset-x="-18" href="https://www.blogger.com/null" role="button" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: default;"><abbr class="_35 timestamp" data-utime="1412009575.589" style="border-bottom-style: none; color: #bfbfbf; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle;" title="Today">0:52</abbr></a><br />
<div class="_39" style="text-align: right;">
</div>
<div class="_3a" style="text-align: right;">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<b class="_36" style="display: block; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 1px 0px 4px;"><span style="line-height: 1.38; white-space: pre-wrap;">1. HOW do you know your god is the right god and the only real god, when there are more than 4000 suggested by humans. </span></b><br />
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<span class="null">
</span>
<br />
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">1a. Please apply your answer to the question above to Shiva.
1b. Please tell me exactly what evidence you have for your god and how it CANNOT be used as evidence for any other god.</span></div>
<span class="null">
</span>
<br />
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">2. Please explain how your bible, which contains more than 400 contradictions and more than 1000 falsehoods, historical inaccuracies and completely impossible stories, is evidence. </span></div>
<span class="null">
</span>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">3. Please discuss the facts of DNA and specifically mDNA in that those decisively, absolutely prove Adam and Eve never existed and the fact science shows absolutely and conclusively there was NEVER a point in human history where there were only two humans. </span></div>
<span class="null">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
3a. Given DNA conclusively, absolutely proves the Adam/Eve story to be impossible, original sin is not real. As such, there is no reason for the later blood sacrifice.
3b. Given there is no original sin, explain why your "god" who is "perfect" and "all knowing" screwed up so badly it decided to kill everything and everyone. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
4. There is no evidence for "Mary." The "virgin" story is impossible for two reasons: IF she was inseminated by a "sprit" or "god" or "angel" and those "beings" are not human, they cannot have human genes or DNA: therefore, "Mary" could NOT have produced a male child; no human DNA/genes, no Y chromosome, no male. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
4b. If your "Mary" existed and had a male child, the father of that child was decidedly male; therefore not a god, unless you're going to invoke magic or you're going to give your "spirit" or "angel" human genes, which again falsifies your story. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
5. Given the many, many excellent schools of archaeology in the world, and particularly in the middle east, where there is very much a will to find evidence of various religions (specifically, christianity and islam), with respect to the story of the wandering jews, there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever there were people in taht very small are of land, wandering about for 40 years: no bones of the animals they would have had to eat; no evidence of any settling - pots, cooking fires, animal bones; no evidence of members of their group dying- and there MUST have been deaths. WHY is there no evidence? Given the size of the area these people were alleged to have wandered, explain how they managed to avoid contact with other humans? </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
6. Given there is utterly no evidence at all, and definitively so, how do you explain the population of the earth TWICE via incest, first via two people who cannot have existed and second via a family of very, very elderly people. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
6b. Given Noah was 600 years old and his wife and children were also very elderly, and given none of them had any experience ship building and given Noah was an uneducated farmer, explain these items: <br />
<ul>
<li>How did Noah build such a vessel?</li>
<li>How did Noah know about kangaroos, iguanas, koalas, komodo dragons?</li>
<li>How did he acquire these animals? </li>
<li>How did he know how to feed them? </li>
<li>How many animals above the estimated 14,000 (low estimate) did Noah ALSO have to load on that boat in order to feed the carnivores? </li>
<li>How much food did he have to load to feed the animals generally? </li>
<li>How did Noah get the Kangaroos back to where they came from, when there would have been no food for them along the way? </li>
</ul>
</div>
</span><span class="null"><div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
6c. How big is a cubit? There are two measurements in the bible; either your wooden boat was 2/3rds the size of the Titanic or it was 18 miles long. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
6d. Given two years ago, a team of experience ship-building engineers built a wooden boat of the approximate (smaller) size of said arc, but with all their skill and experience could not keep the boat afloat longer than a week, how exactly did your 600 year-old man and his ancient family keep their boat afloat whilst feeding all those animals, dealing with the daily tons of excrement and keeping the animals from killing each other. </div>
</span><span class="null">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
7. You have made a presumption here, being I am unschooled in the christian faith. That is your fatal error. I am a member of a family wherein there are pastors in this generation (five) and in EVERY ONE of the last ten generations. I grew up in an evangelical church and was a believer until I was 35, at which point I began asking questions about the many, many inconsistencies, errors and falsehoods presented by members of my faith group. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
I am VERY interested in your ANSWERS here.</div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
I am NOT interested in any comments to the effect I "hate god," am "rejecting god," am uneducated about christian theory. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
I am interested in answers specifically addressing these questions. </div>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
Also, as you have mentioned the march for "christ," may I ask you to:<br />
<ul>
<li>point out specifically the verse in the bible that specifically says "one man, one woman," and please be specific too about where what you find decisively overturns the many, many other verses in the bible speaking to multiple marriage, force marriage, marriage by rape, marriage and concubines... SPECIFICALLY, where in your bible does your "god" say one man, one woman. </li>
</ul>
</div>
</span><span class="null">
</span><br />
<ul>
<li><span class="null"><div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
Also, please will you point out the verses in the bible that SPECIFICALLY say slavery is wrong. Please quote chapter and verse where your god or your "jesus" specifically say - before, when we said where to get slaves and how to treat them, we're rescinding that now.</div>
</span></li>
</ul>
<span class="null">
</span>
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">As I said, I am expecting SPECIFIC answers to these questions. Except for where I've asked for specific bible verses, you may NOT use the bible of evidence or proof of your premise: you must support your premise by extra-biblical sources. AIG does NOT count, as it is absolutely refuted and does not use extra-biblical resources.</span><br />
<span class="null"><br /></span>
<span class="null">You may not use William Lane Craig, as he is also endlessly refuted; you may certainly not quote Ken Ham, as he is demonstrably ridiculous; you may not use "The case for Christ" which is also definitively debunked and its author exposed as a plagiarist - as a journalist and since then. </span></div>
<span class="null">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
I await your evidence. If you have it, and it is viable, I will share it and you will win a Nobel prize.</div>
</span></div>
<div class="_1yr" style="float: right; margin-left: 4px;">
<span class="_2oy" style="float: right;"></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="_sq">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412009862273:cf76496941fad9b413" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_2w7 _8o _8t lfloat _ohe" style="float: left; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 1px;">
<a class="_b9" data-hovercard-instant="1" data-hovercard-offset-x="-18" href="https://www.blogger.com/null" role="button" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: default;"><abbr class="_35 timestamp" data-utime="1412009862.272" style="border-bottom-style: none; color: #bfbfbf; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle;" title="Today"></abbr></a><span class="null">Oh, and you also may not call me names for having asked you to substantiate your various premises.</span></div>
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<span class="null">
</span></div>
<div class="_1yr" style="float: right; margin-left: 4px;">
<span class="_2oy" style="float: right;"></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="_sq">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412010029802:db590277c27bc68006" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_2w7 _8o _8t lfloat _ohe" style="float: left; margin-right: 10px; margin-top: 1px;">
<br />
<a data-reactid=".ev" href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a><br />
<a class="_b9" data-hovercard-instant="1" data-hovercard-offset-x="-18" href="https://www.blogger.com/null" role="button" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: default;"><abbr class="_35 timestamp" data-utime="1412010029.801" style="border-bottom-style: none; color: #bfbfbf; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle;" title="Today"></abbr></a><span class="null">Oh... and I'm going to post the entirety of your answers, OK? I'll delete any reference to either of us, to protect your identity.</span></div>
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<span class="null">
</span>
<br />
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">I'm assuming you're going t</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412010196278:6464b13c4f6e48cc80" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">Oh, and please do not insult me by saying "you won't accept any evidence I present." </span></div>
<span class="null">
</span>
<br />
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">If it is viable, substantiated evidence, absolutely I will accept it.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: red;"><b>MR</b></span>: </span><span class="null"><abbr>W</abbr>hy so hostile? I have been polite and friendly towards you<abbr><b>. </b><i><b>{"Hostile" is a commonly-used slag by christians when they're on the spot (and other religious types, to be fair), and when they're confronted with questions they either can't answer, haven't thought about, or have thought about and don't like what they've discovered. In 99.9% of these exchanges, the christian will resort to diversions - you're hostile, you hate god, why are you so angry, you must have been hurt, etc. etc., rather than answering any question. This, of course, renders them false. Either their religion is true and there are concrete answers, or it isn't and they don't}</b></i></abbr></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412011054084:d6e31a77941de4ff10" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div class="_37">
<span class="null">Anyway, I guess you are angry at us crazy Christians LOL. <br />(<b><i>No, absolutely not. I just asked a series of questions. Unfortunate christians seem to interpret "defend your faith" as "you're angry at us.")</i></b>Funny thing is I bet that we would agree on many of your dislikes of Christians, <b>(<i>I don't dislike christians; I dislike it when they do everything they can to avoid answering questions).</i></b> I don't like most of them either. You probably steriotype (sic) us as all the same but there is a vast difference between the church crowd and my tiny crowd who go out and demonstrate the power of God. Nobody can prove God anymore (sic) than can prove life forming from non life without an external cause.....</span><br />
<br />
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span></b>: </span><span class="null">Please quote me directly where I say "I dislike christians."</span><br />
<span class="null">Please identify what you see as "hostile."</span><br />
<span class="null">So you state here "nobody can prove god." On what grounds do you believe in your unprovable being?</span><br />
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<br />
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: Since contacting you before, I have decided not to engage in these conversations anymore. (<i><b>Huge surprise. So much for "Anyway I would love to chat with you on these subjects and more.")</b></i></span><br />
<br />
<span class="null">Don't you agree it's pointless? We just disagree. You see we will never agree because our foundations for viewing the world are so different. You (appear) to live by a 'fact' based, 'if you cant prove it, it does not exist' worldview (sic), and I live from a spiritual worldview. I suspect you are not willing to consider anything that exists outside of this physical dimension, so our conversation will be biased towards your ground rules which you have already outlined. The main reason I dont (sic) engage in these conversations anymore is because I have dedicated myself to helping others.<br /><br />I currently (sic) spending all my spare time helping people who are deeply depressed and in bad addictions. There is such a need for these people as they are everywhere. I used to have the same problem for 30 years but I was instantly set free in a supernatural way, never to return to those addictions. I have seen others instantly set free as well. So as you can imagine, suffering for 30 years in ways I will spare you, to having and instant, supernatural experience that took all that away, gives me a lot of belief in those sorts of things. I am thumb typing this on my phone at work, so forgive any bad spelling.</span></div>
<span class="null">
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412011722299:cb34177d2e7efc7e77" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME:</span></b> As you have already diverted this conversation away from my questions, I will take it you have no intention of attempting answers.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: See above, you are displaying hostility now (<b><i>nope. Asking him to clarify his intentions, as he opened with </i></b></span><b class="_36" style="display: block; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1; margin: 1px 0px 4px;"><span style="line-height: 1.38; white-space: pre-wrap;">"Anyway I would love to chat with you on these subjects and more.")</span></b></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412011764363:251f8988eeb03f7053" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">ME: Are you not confident in your beliefs enough to discuss them with respect to the questions I've asked you? Again, you're diverting. I invite you to take this opportunity to answer my questions above.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412011838931:14c4bad73a3f957884" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: You get to set the ground rules for the grid we work within?</span><span class="null"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span></b>: As I noted above, Mark, I asked you not to insult me by suggesting nothing you can present will be acceptable, yet in your note above, you write, "I suspect you are not willing to consider anything that exists outside of this physical dimension, so our conversation will be biased towards your ground rules which you have already outlined."</span><br />
<br />
<span class="null">Yes, evidence matters. On what grounds do you "believe" what you say you believe?</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412011892762:c0fc7f5bff668f3278" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">You're welcome to set the ground rules, as long as they don't include, "just believe it because if you don't, you're going to hell."</span></div>
<span class="null">
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">How do you establish if anything exists outside the physical dimension?</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412011938168:d97fbeb64b53b70714" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: You see, you are steriotyping me with churchians (sic, sic) (<i><b>avoid avoid avoid....)</b></i></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:<1412012058638:2929127007-1040187488@mail.projektitan.com>" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span></b>: Please identify where I stereotyped you?</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">I've asked you several questions and am looking forward to your answers.
I have invited you to set the ground rules
I have stated I will accept any viable evidence you present.</span></div>
<span class="null">
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">How have you established if there is anything outside the physical dimension and what it is?</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012183170:95d59589e11d682e78" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: Listen, I'm at work right now, I cannot give this my full attention. I will try to speak to you this evening. I am thumb typing on my phone. I am not like the Christians you have met, I guarantee you 100%. I don't even really like that term as by it's very nature it steriotypes (sic) and pigion (sic) holes. Like if I keep referring to you as an athiest. <i><b>(avoid, avoid, avoid, divert)</b></i></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:<1412012160175:2240938601-1040187488@mail.projektitan.com>" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span></b>: I am very interested to know your answers. These are fair questions put to you based on what you have written here.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">You are more than welcome to refer to me as atheist, humanist, secular, because those are true and apt.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">Well, Mark, so far, so good. #predictable</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012314441:a976ee9f735f50ca15" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: See above. I will try, but how can you prove that, I have no idea but to demonstrate it. Come with us next time we go to the streets to heal people. But even then, it can be easily dismissed as placebo, mind over matter etc.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012384449:dc26a40d9f1d167435" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span></b>: Please Mark, will you start at the beginning and review the questions above. I am very interested in your answers to those questions.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012470079:318b75759133314659" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">What is your evidence for "healing?" Are you suggesting people who are literally sick come away from your events cured? </span><br />
<span class="null">How have you established they were sick in the first place? </span><br />
<span class="null">What testing did you perform to establish if they were sick and with what?</span><br />
<span class="null">What testing did you perform to establish they were no longer sick?</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012517443:0481b02a0ec0280172" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: I dont have events. I approach people on the street. </span><span class="null">I see people with injuries and ask to pray for them.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012550727:1203dc152ddb6be139" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span></b>: Can you tell me please: if you had been born in Iran, are you sure you would be christian? </span></div>
<span class="null">
</span>
<br />
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<ul>
<li><span class="null">Is your family christian?</span></li>
<li><span class="null">Would you describe Canada as a predominantly judeo-christian culture?</span></li>
<li><span class="null">That was not my question: how do you establish they are ill?</span></li>
<li><span class="null">How do you establish they are no longer ill following whatever intervention? </span></li>
<li><span class="null">And you have evidence these injuries disappear?</span></li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012616158:05055c88387efb2f98" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span></b>: My family are athiests. I was raised to believe in evolution.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012685579:548d59954a9f377a36" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span>: </b>I'm going to stop proposing questions now. I invite you to review all the questions here and to answer them. I am very interested in your answers and I will say this again: anything you propose that is verified and substantiated, I will absolutely accept. </span>Any evidence or proof you have, anything you can substantiate, I will absolutely accept.<span class="null"> </span></div>
<span class="null"></span><br />
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span>: </b>The only evidence I have is the reaction I get. OK, I have to stop now. Got to work. Gonna get fired LOL. I will do my best later</span></span></div>
<span class="null">
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012704424:fe6393a79ac46ba305" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span>: </b>Just as a point of order, religion and evolution are two different subjects...</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012747263:af83df32873a53f819" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR</span>: </b>Disagree STRONGLY LOL</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012751119:a0f5223cce2c5f8b04" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span>: </b>Please print this conversation and please, please respond to each question. I am very interested in your answers, your evidence and your substantiation.</span></div>
<span class="null">
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">Regardless, they are two different subjects. There is overwhelming evidence for one and none for the other.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012890713:dffad25cbc12386198" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">MR:</span> </b>Although before I disagree, I need to know which evolution you refer to (Darwinian, macro et)</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="webMessengerMessageGroup clearfix" id="wm:mid.1412012989754:c3da5972377b4bca18" style="border-width: 1px 0px 0px; padding: 8px 20px 7px; position: relative; zoom: 1;"><div class="clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="clearfix _42ef" style="overflow: hidden; zoom: 1;">
<div>
<div class="_37">
<div class="_53">
<div class="_3hi clearfix" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_38 direction_ltr" style="direction: ltr; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.38; margin-right: 50px;">
<div style="white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null"><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">ME</span>: </b>Let us deal with the set of questions I've asked you.</span></div>
<span class="null">
</span>
<br />
<div style="margin-top: 10px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
<span class="null">I am very, very interested in your answers, so please, I invite you to take this opportunity to address those questions. </span></div>
<span class="null">
</span>
<span class="null">
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
</ul>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-6642334969502497922016-02-11T23:00:00.001-07:002016-02-11T23:00:49.925-07:00GMO debateIt is not at all uncommon for me to kick the proverbial hornet's nest on this subject.<br />
<br />
As I note in this conversation, I have a good friend, Dr. Cami Ryan, who is an expert in this field, and contact with another person, the public affairs officer for Monsanto, who is Cami's friend, who advised me on a bunch of these issues.<br />
<br />
The short form is this:<br />
GMOs are common, ubiquitous and SAFE, and consumed by humans and livestock for more than 70 years.<br />
Glyphosate is an effective, low-risk, fast-dispersing herbicide that has been in use for more than 60 years.<br />
<br />
These things are facts, supported by science and frankly indisputable, but disputed they are.<br />
<br />
Here's today's convo:<br />
<br />
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 10.5pt;">There are so many ways I've lost respect for this
guy in the last decade, from the middlingly awful music they've been making for
years, to having their latest album appear unbidden in my iTunes. More annoying
than anything.<br />
But this is a whole new level of evil. Damn, Bono.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/Elizabeth71?fref=nf"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<b><span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 10.5pt;">Orignal POST</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">· <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: 12.0pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 10.5pt;">Bono the bone head!<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/u2s-bono-partners-with-monsanto-to-flood-african-agriculture-with-gmos/5456393" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.5pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 13.5pt;"><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/u2s-bono-partners-with-monsanto-to-flood-african-agriculture-with-gmos/5456393" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">U2's Bono Partners with Monsanto to
Flood African Agriculture with GMOs</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">As his career continues to free fall into total
irrelevance, pop star "Bono" of the rock group U2 has announced his
support for a U.S.-backed plan to pillage Africa by…<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin-bottom: 7.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">GLOBALRESEARCH.CA<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; margin-bottom: 7.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">BF</span><span style="display: none; font-family: "arial" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.0pt;">Top of Form<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="display: none; font-family: "arial" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.0pt;">BFBF<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> So disappointing<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM: </span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">boo<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: 1. This:<br />
<a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch</span></a><br />
<br />
2. This<br />
<a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skepticalraptor.com%2Fskepticalraptorblog.php%2Fyour-one-stop-shop-for-gmo-science-facts%2F&h=pAQFya0o0" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://www.skepticalraptor.com/.../your-one-stop-shop.../</span></a><br />
<br />
For more than 70 years, GMO tech has been part of our landscape. Despite so
much garbage, non-research, conspiracy, full-on-bullshit about it, the facts
are CLEAR CLEAR CLEAR: the careful, thoughtful, science-based, heavily
regulated manipulation of genes in order to produce excellent quality,
drought/disease/pest-resistant foods/grains is NOT DANGEROUS.<br />
<br />
It is CRITICAL to understand the realities of modification - and how lab
modification differs from all the other types of modifications that happen to
food.<br />
<br />
As for the source of this article, PLEASE people... seriously??? Such a deep
pit of bullshit is this organisation.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">Globalresearch - RationalWiki</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">Globalresearch (under the domain names
globalresearch.ca and<a href="http://globalresearch.org/" target="_blank">globalresearch.org</a>)
is the website of the Montreal-based non-profit The Centre for Research on
Globalisation (CRG) founded by Michel Chossudovsky,[2][3] a tenured professor
at the University of Ottawa.[4] Weep for the future.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 6.75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">RATIONALWIKI.ORG<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953729006670&set=p.10153953729006670&type=3"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953729006670&set=p.10153953729006670&type=3"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="Picture_x0020_57" o:spid="_x0000_i1034" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Julie Carole's photo."
href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953729006670&set=p.10153953729006670&type=3"
style='width:195.75pt;height:147pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'
o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg"
o:title="Julie Carole's photo"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953729316670&set=p.10153953729316670&type=3"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953729316670&set=p.10153953729316670&type=3"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="Picture_x0020_55" o:spid="_x0000_i1033" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Julie Carole's photo."
href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953729316670&set=p.10153953729316670&type=3"
style='width:195.75pt;height:138.75pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'
o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg"
o:title="Julie Carole's photo"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: As for Bono being a humanitarian, and making
sustainable crops more of a reality, ABSOLUTELY. Because things are hard to
grow in arid climates first of all, and doubly difficult where the soil is poor
and pests are a major factor.<br />
<br />
It's all well and good for us who are so spoiled by an ample, safe food supply
to dictate what should happen in Africa - or to ignore the huge rates of
starvation there - assessed at one person per every TWO SECONDS. If GMO seed
can provide viable foodsources, then YES. Because there is ZERO risk to human
health, and even if there were (and there is NOT) compared to 30 people
starving every minute, don't you think it's worth the risk??<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention" title="Like this comment"><span style="color: #3b5998;">Like</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #3b5998;">Reply</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?comment_id=10153255135721951&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D"><span style="color: #9197a3;">3 hrs</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM <a href="http://www.momsacrossamerica.com/about" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://www.momsacrossamerica.com/about</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.momsacrossamerica.com/about" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.momsacrossamerica.com/about" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="Picture_x0020_52" o:spid="_x0000_i1032" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="https://external-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQBWzhrmFJ568bSb&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fd3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net%2Fyesmaam%2Fsites%2F1%2Fmeta_images%2Foriginal%2FMAA_logo_final.jpg%3F1423013799&cfs=1&upscale=1&ext=png2jpg"
href="http://www.momsacrossamerica.com/about" target=""_blank""
style='width:67.5pt;height:67.5pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'
o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image004.jpg"
o:title="safe_image.php?d=AQBWzhrmFJ568bSb&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fd3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net%2Fyesmaam%2Fsites%2F1%2Fmeta_images%2Foriginal%2FMAA_logo_final"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://www.momsacrossamerica.com/about" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">For the Freedom to Choose our Families' Food!</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">MOMSACROSSAMERICA.COM<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM</span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> Studies coming out
indicate high glyphosphate levels in humans and autism , alzheimers, allergies,
birth defects, ADHD, Just a few... No studies have been done proving the safety
of GMO foods. Now is the time to do this.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM</span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> The starvation has
alot to do with dictators who steal all the $$ and put in swiss bank accounts and
never develop infrastructure in preparation for drought times. It is the
downfall of Africa. GMO crops are not the solution.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: Yet another ridiculous, ill-informed,
fear-mongering site. This group is TINY and is made up of, to be frank,
uneducated idiots who believe all sorts of bullshit.<br />
<br />
AS for glyphosate That is ALSO BULLSHIT.<br />
<br />
Glyphosate ONLY affects PLANT enzymes. It is highly volatile in that it
dissipates within very few days. It does NOT remain in the plant and even if it
did, it CANNOT have any effect on humans, as we do NOT have the enzyme affected
by this product. Further to this, the amounts used on fields is VERY small. One
gallon is enough to do hundreds and hundreds of acres.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent?fref=ufi"><b><span style="color: #3b5998;">JC</span></b></a> Jane.
A lot, not "alot." Your point here has zero relationship to the subject
at hand, and it is an unfounded opinion.<br />
<br />
GM crops are not the whole solution, true but they are a HUGE part of it.<br />
<br />
Also, can I ask you if you've recently eaten an apple, banana, pear or any
broccoli, because if you have - regardless of whether you also buy in to the
also-bullshity "organic" fad, you are eating GM foods. For SURE.,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: JM, go to <a href="http://www.rationalwiki.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">www.rationalwiki.com</span></a> and
look up Moms Across America. Seriously. That group is ridiculously idiotic.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: JM, Show me those studies. Provide links.
I promise you I will debunk, with prejudice, every study you post.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">SM</span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> So JC - tell us how
Monsanto's independant safety testing and licensing works devil emoticon...and
while you're at it can you explain why you think Glyphosate is safe.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JH: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail?fref=ufi"></a> JC, would
you like to reply to Stan?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: I'd love to reply to both of those.<br />
When I was researching Monsanto, I called them. I spoke to the public policy
lead and picked her brain. She spoke to me for an hour and then sent me loads
of independently reviewed research. She also directed me to a vast external
resource, all public.<br />
<br />
As for glyphosate, again. There is endless publicly available information and
independently-reviewed science on this product and subject. Yes, If you wish I
will go into my archives and post everthing I have, which will provide you all
about two weeks of reading materials. Or, you can do what I did, call Monsanto
and, if you're near a location, go visit - they run. Daily tours of all
facilities and their staff is free to speak. Ask them about the science.<br />
<br />
Glyphosate is an extremely safe, low dose, short life herbicide. It ONLY
affects a certain plant enzyme which humans do not have. It has been in use
more than 60 years and I'd it were dangerous we would see evidence and the US.
And Canadian food safety organizations would have pulled it. Facts do not support
the idea it is unsafe.<br />
<br />
Please read everything I've written and posted tonight rather than me rewriting
it all again<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: As to the article, let us parse:<br />
1. "As his career continues to free fall into total irrelevance..."
This is opinion, not fact and does not reference the excellent initiatives Bono
has begun or is affiliated with. Also, as the band has been at it for something
like 30 years, and still plays to absolutely CRAMMED stadiums, this opinion is
not in any imaginable way supported by facts.<br />
<br />
2. "... his support for a U.S.-backed plan to pillage Africa by stealing
its land and agricultural systems and replacing them with corporate-owned GMOs
(genetically-modified organisms) and chemicals."<br />
<br />
The US does NOT have a "plan to pillage Africa." Africa is a
continent, not a country; each African country has its own government (or
dictator, as the case may be), so it is IMPOSSIBLE for the US to pillage the
entire continent.<br />
<br />
The US does NOT have any plans to steal land, or ag systems in Africa. The US
could not begin to afford the wars it would take to overthrow various
governments in order to enact this "evil" plan. Yes, GMOs are
produced by corporations that have the R&D heft to allow for their development
and testing, but that has no bearing on anything. There are five large and many
smaller corporations that are engaged in the science of modification.<br />
<br />
3. "/The Obama regime." This is bullshit. Obama is the duly-elected
president of a country with free elections. It is NOT a regime. Dictatorships
are regimes. Saudi Arabia has a regime. Obama was elected. He is not a despot
and he didn't wrest power from anyone by force.<br />
<br />
4. "New Alliance for Food Security and Nutrition,” a thinly-veiled Green
Revolution 2.0 that aims to uproot autonomous family farming systems throughout
Africa and replace them with toxic monoculture systems controlled by
multinational corporations like Monsanto."<br />
<br />
Also bullshit. Monoculture is NOT the goal, first of all: even a mediocre
scientist will tell you that narrowing the gene pool leads to bad things. See
the Hawaiian papaya issue for a case study.<br />
<br />
I'm only two paragraphs in to this stupid article and disgusted by it. It is
fact-free, biased, fear mongering crap designed for people who see conspiracy
under every rock. It is beneath thinking people to buy into this garbage.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
JM</span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> I totally disagree with you and that is fine.
Blessings and be happy not angry and the Monsanto tragedy will continue.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; mso-line-height-alt: 10.95pt;">
<span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="Picture_x0020_39"
o:spid="_x0000_i1031" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Julie Carole"
href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent" style='width:24pt;height:24pt;
visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square' o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image005.jpg"
o:title="Julie Carole"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span></a></span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: JM, Rational Wiki on Glyphosate - and
particularly, read the parts under "Woo" (short for Woo woo and an
nicer way to say "full-on bullshit).<br />
<a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Glyphosate" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Glyphosate</span></a><br />
<br />
And here for some exposing of the "gullible" MAA.<br />
<a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fkfolta.blogspot.ca%2F2013%2F04%2Fthe-gullible-moms-across-america-post.html&h=VAQHYMT8g" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://kfolta.blogspot.ca/.../the-gullible-moms-across...</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Glyphosate" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">Glyphosate - RationalWiki</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">Glyphosate is a synthetic herbicide that is widely
used in farming, especially since the introduction of glyphosate-tolerant
strains of crops have been introduced via genetic engineering, and has been
historically produced by agricultural biotechnical company Monsanto under the
trademark "Roundup",…<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 6.75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">RATIONALWIKI.ORG<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM; </span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/?hc_location=ufi" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/?pnref=story</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="Picture_x0020_37" o:spid="_x0000_i1030" type="#_x0000_t75" alt=""If your choice in underwear was connected to suicides in India, would you pay more attention to the panties you buy?""
href="https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/"
style='width:222pt;height:222pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'
o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image006.jpg"
o:title=""If your choice in underwear was connected to suicides in India, would you pay more attention to the panties you buy?""/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;">
<b><span style="color: white; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 13.5pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/"><span style="color: white; text-decoration: none;">The Greenest
Panties in the World<o:p></o:p></span></a></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;">
<b><span style="color: #b2b2b2; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/"><span style="color: #b2b2b2; text-decoration: none;">01:21<o:p></o:p></span></a></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">3,405,870 Views<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<b><span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/?fref=nf"><span style="color: #3b5998;">Fusion Network</span></a></span></b><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/FusionNetwork/videos/1077910685581776/"><span style="color: #9197a3; text-decoration: none;">9 February at
14:48</span></a> · <a href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/New-York-New-York/108424279189115"><span style="color: #9197a3;">New York, NY, United States</span></a> · <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 12.0pt;">
<span style="color: #666666; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">If your
choice in underwear was connected to suicides in India, would you pay more
attention to the panties you buy?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: Again, totally irrelevant to the discussion at
hand. I've provided you excellent links and Google is a wonderful place for
assessing the validity of claims.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM: I follow Vandana Shiva. She is a very
educated scientist from India. This is what has already happened in India.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent?fref=ufi"><b><span style="color: #3b5998;">JC</span></b></a> This
person:???<br />
Wealthy Activist Vandana Shiva Is A Poor Advocate For The ...<br />
<a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2014/07/16/a-wealthy-activist-is-a-poor-advocate-for-the-poor/#23fe9e48ad9d" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://www.forbes.com/.../a-wealthy-activist-is-a.../...</span></a><br />
Jul 16, 2014 - Vandana Shiva advocates policies that will inflict widespread
poverty, malnutrition, and death on the very people she claims to champion.<br />
Vandana Shiva's Crusade Against Genetically Modified Crops<br />
<a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newyorker.com%2Fmagazine%2F2014%2F08%2F25%2Fseeds-of-doubt&h=AAQEgyola" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/25/seeds-of-doubt</span></a><br />
Aug 25, 2014 - Michael Specter on Vandana Shiva, an activist who accuses
biotechnology companies such as Monsanto of imposing “food totalitarianism.<br />
Vandana Shiva: 'Rock Star' of GMO protest movement has anti<br />
<a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.geneticliteracyproject.org%2Fglp-facts%2Fvandana-shiva%2F&h=QAQE2LkLM" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/glp.../vandana-shiva/</span></a><br />
Sep 1, 2015 - In a 2012 interview, Bill Moyers referred to Vandana Shiva as the
"rock star" of the anti-GMO movement. What are the facts behind the
curtain?<br />
<br />
Um.... I think you need to do some homework on your guru....<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2014/07/16/a-wealthy-activist-is-a-poor-advocate-for-the-poor/#23fe9e48ad9d" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2014/07/16/a-wealthy-activist-is-a-poor-advocate-for-the-poor/#23fe9e48ad9d" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="Picture_x0020_32" o:spid="_x0000_i1029"
type="#_x0000_t75" alt="https://external-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQBi3Bwo4zRch_ne&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fhenrymiller%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F07%2F670px-golden_rice.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&ext=png2jpg"
href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2014/07/16/a-wealthy-activist-is-a-poor-advocate-for-the-poor/#23fe9e48ad9d"
target=""_blank"" style='width:67.5pt;height:67.5pt;visibility:visible;
mso-wrap-style:square' o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image007.jpg"
o:title="safe_image.php?d=AQBi3Bwo4zRch_ne&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fhenrymiller%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F07%2F670px-golden_rice"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2014/07/16/a-wealthy-activist-is-a-poor-advocate-for-the-poor/#23fe9e48ad9d" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">Wealthy Activist Vandana Shiva Is A
Poor Advocate For The Poor</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">FORBES.COM<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM: <a href="http://surgicalneurologyint.com/surgicalint_articles/glyphosate-pathways-to-modern-diseases-iii-manganese-neurological-diseases-and-associated-pathologies/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://surgicalneurologyint.com/.../glyphosate-pathways.../</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://surgicalneurologyint.com/surgicalint_articles/glyphosate-pathways-to-modern-diseases-iii-manganese-neurological-diseases-and-associated-pathologies/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://surgicalneurologyint.com/surgicalint_articles/glyphosate-pathways-to-modern-diseases-iii-manganese-neurological-diseases-and-associated-pathologies/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="Picture_x0020_30" o:spid="_x0000_i1028"
type="#_x0000_t75" alt="https://external-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDbFpf7z-_4JRFM&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsurgicalneurologyint.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F08%2F4631%2FSNI-6-45-g001.png&cfs=1&upscale=1&ext=png2jpg"
href="http://surgicalneurologyint.com/surgicalint_articles/glyphosate-pathways-to-modern-diseases-iii-manganese-neurological-diseases-and-associated-pathologies/"
target=""_blank"" style='width:67.5pt;height:67.5pt;visibility:visible;
mso-wrap-style:square' o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image008.jpg"
o:title="safe_image.php?d=AQDbFpf7z-_4JRFM&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsurgicalneurologyint.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F08%2F4631%2FSNI-6-45-g001"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://surgicalneurologyint.com/surgicalint_articles/glyphosate-pathways-to-modern-diseases-iii-manganese-neurological-diseases-and-associated-pathologies/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">Glyphosate, pathways to modern
diseases III: Manganese,…</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">SURGICALNEUROLOGYINT.COM<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JM:</span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> These articles are
published by scientists. You can find anything on the internet to prove your
point. Does not make it correct. i have studied this serious issue extensively.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: I claim bullshit. If you had, you'd have
changed you stance. And yes, science is the best source of information on
science-based issues, unless you think opinion caries more weight than 60 years
of research.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .75pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
JM: <a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-ban-on-glyphosate-called-for-by-portuguese-medical-association-president/5507225" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-ban-on.../5507225</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-ban-on-glyphosate-called-for-by-portuguese-medical-association-president/5507225" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-ban-on-glyphosate-called-for-by-portuguese-medical-association-president/5507225" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="Picture_x0020_25" o:spid="_x0000_i1027"
type="#_x0000_t75" alt="https://external-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQB9l_tU2hp3htbZ&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Fpetsicides_roundup_chemicals_735_350.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&sx=361&sy=0&sw=350&sh=350&ext=png2jpg"
href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-ban-on-glyphosate-called-for-by-portuguese-medical-association-president/5507225"
target=""_blank"" style='width:67.5pt;height:67.5pt;visibility:visible;
mso-wrap-style:square' o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image009.jpg"
o:title="safe_image.php?d=AQB9l_tU2hp3htbZ&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Fpetsicides_roundup_chemicals_735_350"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-ban-on-glyphosate-called-for-by-portuguese-medical-association-president/5507225" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">Global Ban on Glyphosate Called for
by Portuguese Medical Association President</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">GLOBALRESEARCH.CA<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: Did you
actually read this, Jane? Can you find any errors in science?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: </span><span lang="FR-CA" style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">Um... Dear
Jane. </span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">The problem here is that you did not read the
background on the source, Global Research, and so you are posting really,
really bad resources that use really, really bad science. This article is
EASILY debunked.<br />
<br />
Maybe try running it through <a href="http://www.rbutr.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">www.rbutr.com</span></a><br />
<br />
As a matter of fact, this entire GMO issue is excellently parsed through Rbutr.
Great resource. Also Snopes.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://www.rbutr.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">rbutr - rbutls, Debunkings and
Counter Arguments to misinformation on the internet - Think Again</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">rbutr helps you find rbutls to any page you read on
the internet so that you can get a complete view of all sides of the
discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 6.75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">RBUTR.COM<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JH: JC, whether or not you believe that GMO foods
are safe: there remains the question of the right to self-determination vs. the
kind of paternalistic colonialist enterprising we've seen ravage cultures and
ecologies throughout the world. The African Civil Organizations stand against.
Doesn't that matter to you? Or do you know better?<br />
<br />
Also - do you really think that using Monsanto crops, which require an
intensive chemical regime to create good yields, is a good idea for people or
planet, in Africa or elsewhere?<br />
I don't. I think some big interests are going to make some big money, create an
unsustainable dependency on non-compassionate foreign corporations, and further
undermine local ecologies and intelligences in the process.<br />
<br />
There are MANY ways to improve arid landscapes. Is big Ag interested in sharing
the planet- and people-friendly methods that permaculturists have been
developing for decades? At all? No. Out of the goodness of their hearts? No.
Give your head a shake. They're in it for money, they don't care about people's
right to self-determination, and they sure as hell don't care about getting
more food to Africans. They care about more CUSTOMERS. That is all.<br />
<br />
Question to you: who edits your Rational Wiki? Are you aware that many large organizations
- particularly big pharma and big Ag - have full-time staff that aggressively
monitor wikis to ensure their propaganda stays front and centre, and reasonable
criticisms (and the studies that support them) get buried? Do you really think
that Rational Wiki is any less biased than Global Research? You are completely
entitled to your favorite sources, the ones that align with your biases, but
don't BS yourself that yours are "The Truth".<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #141823; text-decoration: none;">JC: Currently
educating myself on this particular group of NGOs but so far what I'm seeing is
a group of approximately 60 organisations that are humanity-minded (good!) but
not science-based. I will continue to read. I have a resource that contains
more th...<u><span style="color: #3b5998;">See More</span></u><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #141823; text-decoration: none;"><br />
<b><u><span style="color: #3b5998;">JC</span></u></b> And yes, I absolutely agree
with you: they do care about their customers. Absolutely. Monsanto's sole
client is farmers.<br />
<br />
Are you suggesting people/farmers are being rail-roaded into buying Monsanto
product? Because that is absolutely not true and I will provide you backup and
links to real, live, working human farmers who will tell you exactly how it all
works. Or you can surf on over to the still-active discussion on this exact
subject - and you can ask them any questions you have - at <u><span style="color: #3b5998;">Food and Farm Discussion Lab</span></u>.<br />
<br />
As to full-time monitoring of wikis, nope. That's not a fact. Yes, it is true
organisations will correct errors in wikis, and so they should, because it is
also true that activists post fantastically false information there, and that
must be removed. It is unethical to contribute to falsehoods.<br />
<br />
But you used the word "propaganda," which is very loaded. Companies
do have every right to advertise and to promote themselves - which you do on
your site and I do on my sites; that is propaganda. More here:<br />
"Of course propaganda is used in controversial matters, but it is also
used to promote things that are generally acceptable and
non-controversial." from <u><span style="color: #3b5998;">https://www.historians.org/.../what.../defining-propaganda-i</span></u> )<o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #141823; text-decoration: none;"><u>Defining
Propaganda I</u><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #141823; text-decoration: none;">An attempt to
define propaganda is made near the end of this pamphlet after we have examined
its main characteristics. In order to avoid mistaken ideas, however, it may be
useful to point out at once what some of these characteristics are.<o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 6.75pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #9197a3; text-decoration: none;">HISTORIANS.ORG<o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #141823; text-decoration: none;">JC: And yes, I
know for an absolute fact that Rational Wiki is far, far less biased than
Global Research! Seriously, I will encourage you to really read up on that
group, because they do not produce reliable information.<o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">I don't "believe." The science is crystal
clear. You eat GMO EVER Day and have for your entire life.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">These are all tropes based on conspiracy. I
personally know two people who work with Monsanto. I trust the science and I
trust these scientists. The information that counters these claims is readily
had.<br />
<br />
People are welcome to their opinions but not to have these false, conspiracy
based statements go unchallenged.<br />
<br />
As for a Rational Wiki I don't know the answer to that question but the have a
contact and FAQ page. Call and ask.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JH: Truly I say to you, Bono is an ass. Posting
this because I find it amusing and clearly there will be no actual exchange of
ideas here. Just a lot of shouting in the dark. So, something funny.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/truly-i-say-to-you-today-that-bono-is-an-asswipe-1721192701" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/truly-i-say-to-you-today...</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/truly-i-say-to-you-today-that-bono-is-an-asswipe-1721192701" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/truly-i-say-to-you-today-that-bono-is-an-asswipe-1721192701" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">Truly I Say To You Today That Bono
Is An Asswipe</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">THECONCOURSE.DEADSPIN.COM|BY ALBERT BURNEKO<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JH: Trusting science as a system and trusting
Monsanto reps saying their products are safe are not the same thing.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">BH: Just a thought it is possible Julie to have a
healthy debate without being demeaning and condescending to those you are
debating with. I hope you're not an educator cause your students would be
afraid of you.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JH2: Awe this is sad. Money hungry asses unsure
emoticon those poor people in Africa. Commercialism is not alright. This
article is was very good at providing valid points on mega co operations<br />
wanting to make revenue at their cultural's expense. Geez unsure emoticon<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JH2: </span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> ^^^^That
is how I feel about that !!!! frown emoticon<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jessa.hail/posts/10153254937176951?notif_t=comment_mention"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JH: </span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> And for
more fun... <a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent?hc_location=ufi" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JC</span></a> I think you'll
find this an interesting read. Conspiracies do actually happen. Not everyone
who mistrusts the powerful is an idiot. Governments and businesses do not
always tell the expensive truth about their illegal or unethical practices.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://www.nytimes.com/.../the-lawyer-who-became-duponts...</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">The Lawyer Who Became DuPont’s
Worst Nightmare</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">NYTIMES.COM|BY NATHANIEL RICH<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">BF: And actually super interesting that you
use the word fear mongering to describe others cause that's pretty much what
you've done with all your posts. Rather than take you serious Julie I stopped
reading half way through after all the people you called idiotic.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: I don't give a damn if people call me
idiotic. I simply feel sorry that people are so bonded to their beliefs which
should not be confused with science-based knowledge.<br />
<br />
I did my research - a LOT of it - on these two subjects; I called people, I
read case law, studies - independent studies to be clear - and then I
called back Monsanto and checked with them.<br />
<br />
I have reams of information, sites, links, and case law that I can cite and I
guarantee you, most of the poeple here haven't done any research at all, and
are relying on very poor resources. Whatever. That's their right, but it
doesn't mean they are right, and it doesn't change the facts, or the excellent
science.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: Sorry all. Facts are facts are facts and good
science is good science.<br />
<br />
I've given 90 minutes of my time and many good links here. I'll ad</span><u><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/">www.sciencebasedmedicine.org</a></span></u><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"> to the list and suggest you look up Doc. Cami Ryan's blog.<br />
<br />
Otherwise, I can't budge those who are melded to a paradigm.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="Picture_x0020_5" o:spid="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="https://external-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQApuwjqTSX5Hghg&w=90&h=90&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencebasedmedicine.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2F2684073750_3ff83ab044_z.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&ext=png2jpg"
href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/" target=""_blank""
style='width:67.5pt;height:67.5pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'
o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image010.jpg"
o:title="safe_image.php?d=AQApuwjqTSX5Hghg&w=90&h=90&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencebasedmedicine.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2F2684073750_3ff83ab044_z"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 0%; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 15.0pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "georgia" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt;"><a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #141823;">Science-Based Medicine</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.0pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">Science-Based Medicine: Exploring issues and
controversies in the relationship between science and…<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; mso-line-height-alt: 8.25pt;">
<span style="color: #9197a3; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.5pt; text-transform: uppercase;">SCIENCEBASEDMEDICINE.ORG<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: Also, there is an excellent discussion of the
GMO issue at <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/FAFDL/?hc_location=ufi" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">Food and Farm Discussion Lab</span></a> (Facebook
group) a group of farmers international, who are experts in this and other
ag-related issues. I know there is a very active discussion of GMO seeds on there
because I directed another anti-GMO person there the other day. <a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/creamed?hc_location=ufi" target="_blank"><span style="color: #9197a3; text-decoration: none;">#</span><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;">creamed</span></a>.<br />
<br />
One must at some point at least READ the science behind this stuff. Have your
opinions, but understand that the science is based on more than 70 years'
research and use, in the case of GMOs and more than 60 for glyphosate.<br />
<br />
And given you are all consuming GMO products every single day of your lives,
and you will continue to do so for the rest of your lives, and that you're all
quite healthy, I'm sure, and that people the world over are NOT dropping like
flies, AND that sustainability is a CORE goal of the five main companies
engaged in GMO tech (Monsanto is only one of them), the idea they are intent on
not only ruining the world but cannibalising their own clients in the bargain
is absurd.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: JH, that Dupont thing has zero to do with
glyphosate or gmos. I'm going to read the case - the actual case, not this
tear-jerking story - to understand what the case was based on and what the
outcome was.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;">JC: You guys all know Bill Nye the Science guy,
right?<br />
<br />
Well, he was very anti-gmo until he did his research. He's a smart guy....</span>
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fbill-nye-explains-his-stance-on-gmos-2015-7&h=9AQFPQeZd">https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fbill-nye-explains-his-stance-on-gmos-2015-7&h=9AQFPQeZd</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953939756670&set=p.10153953939756670&type=3"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm;">
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<span style="color: #3b5998; font-family: "helvetica" , sans-serif; font-size: 9.0pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953939756670&set=p.10153953939756670&type=3"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="Picture_x0020_1" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Julie Carole's photo."
href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153953939756670&set=p.10153953939756670&type=3"
style='width:195.75pt;height:138.75pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'
o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:/Users/photo/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image011.jpg"
o:title="Julie Carole's photo"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , serif; font-size: 12.0pt; text-decoration: none;"><o:p></o:p></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F6F7F8; line-height: 10.95pt; margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
<br /></div>
<div style="border-top: solid windowtext 1.0pt; border: none; mso-border-top-alt: solid windowtext .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 1.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div align="center" class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; padding: 0cm; text-align: center;">
<span style="display: none; font-family: "arial" , sans-serif; font-size: 8.0pt;">Bottom
of Form<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-27541875003862287482015-07-02T11:52:00.004-06:002015-07-02T11:52:56.876-06:00Cell-level trauma?I've spend the last just about six months in the gym, five days a week, usually, and four months of that with a trainer. The results have been great! Twenty pounds gone and lots of obvious muscle, which is nice for an old person like me. <br /><br />Yesterday, at the request of a guy I'm going to be doing some video work for, I had to subject myself to studio head shots. I did my own, in my own studio, because I can, and because it's a pretty unpleasant option to be on THAT side of the camera - and it's a good thing to do for someone who isn't usually on that side; sure increases the compassion for my clients, who also hate it....<br /><br />The unfortunate result for me, however, is getting to the editing part, which opened the floodgates of self-loathing. <br /><br />This is, I suspect, a feature for many survivor-children - meaning those of us who are adults who come from shitty family situations. I see that meme floating about the internet often - the one where some disabilities aren't obvious. Definitely the case. <br /><br />It's a struggle. Some days, not much, and sometimes I get a reprieve of a day or two and sometimes a week or two even. Most of the time, this dislike (this is a mild term in my case) of self is a constant companion, who occasionally just shuts up for a while. <br /><br />There are so many things I resent about how my mother raised me but at the top of what is, sad to say, a very long list, are this persistent self-loathing and the cell-deep lack of confidence that comes with it. <br /><br />I can't stand people who live their lives as victims, so I don't wallow - today I am, yes. But it is a struggle every single day to not bog down in the fog of ever-present depression, and to not give in to the desire to finally drown in it and have it just come to an end. WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-84880282908477959112014-10-24T11:45:00.004-06:002016-02-12T11:33:48.140-07:00Conscious Stupidity In the Age of Unlimited Access to Information<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px;">
<a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RjWSo6PIMZM/VEqQGafRf5I/AAAAAAAANHM/GNoBZc0q-Cg/s1600/18-son-do-you-know-what-you-did-wrong-funny.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RjWSo6PIMZM/VEqQGafRf5I/AAAAAAAANHM/GNoBZc0q-Cg/s1600/18-son-do-you-know-what-you-did-wrong-funny.jpg" width="320" /></a>Sometimes people wonder why I'm so grumpy about crap that ends up on Facebook or the news or whatever. This is why:</div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
Today, YOU personally will read more information than a man in the middles ages would have come across in his lifetime. I am saying "man" for a reason: a woman in the middle ages would have had about 1/10 the access to information of that man.</div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
<b>Read that again: TODAY alone, you will have access to more information than a man from the middle ages had in his ENTIRE LIFE.</b></div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
You will also have the INSTANT ability to corroborate what you read by doing an internet search, which will give you access to more information than 500 people in the middle ages would have had in their lifetimes.</div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
If that weren't already enough, if you have a smart phone, and 80 percent of us have, you have IN YOUR HANDS, more computing power than was used to launch a spacecraft and land two men on the moon.</div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
With that phone, you can speak to experts, who will also corroborate information for you.</div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
On top of all that, TODAY, as you sit there in your bathrobe at your computer, you have, via <a href="http://www.coursera.org/" target="_blank">Coursera</a>, access to more educational options than people had for 1000s of years - for FREE!</div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-bottom: 6px; margin-top: 6px;">
So yeah, it makes me grumpy when people can't spell simple words, when they share ridiculous, unfounded, stupid, false, manufactured information. And yeah, it makes me crazy when people not only share that information, they REFUSE - via not reading, not researching, and by rejecting FACTS - to learn and to update what they know.</div>
<div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; display: inline; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 17.5636348724365px; margin-top: 6px;">
It is the highest form of taking for granted the wondrous universe of information we have at our fingertips, to post and repost garbage, and to not corroborate and verify.</div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-52202042881359190982014-08-27T00:10:00.000-06:002014-08-27T00:10:15.250-06:00The Effects of Cognitive Dissonance on a Jumpy New Christian<span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><i>Six years ago, a man contacted me after having found me on the web - he was looking for a product I was selling at the time and found me via a search, but was not looking for me specifically.<br /><br />I met him and his wife once and it became clear my product wasn't a fit. For some reason, he added me on Facebook. No big deal. A couple years later, he asked if he could put his then 17 year-old, who was writing a book, in touch with me; yes, fine, although not sure at all what I could do to help, as I've never written a book - ok, I have, this blog, but it hasn't been published.<br /><br />I have not spoken to the child, who is now an adult, since although we were also "friends" on Facebook. No contact at all for I think four years. Until tonight.<br /><br />I am more than happy to engage in honest debate. I like it a lot. Honest is the operative word here.<br /><br />This person said they wanted to engage in a theological debate. What I discovered was they had no intention of debating and - I'm speculating now, but based on some pretty decent evidence - that they were challenged by someone at their church to find someone and "tell them about Jesus." <br /><br />This person has recently discovered "god," as a result of being engaged to a christian, and, as happens, is SUPER EXCITED about the whole finding god thing and REALLY WANTS TO SHARE the experience. Except doing that with an identified (grumpy, old) atheist was not the best place to start.<br /><br />As always, these conversations are long, but I will do you, dear reader, the favour of putting in bold the salient places where it is obvious the "debater," is drowning. I've corrected my spelling/grammar errors - I hope all, but probably not, and I've left those made by the other writer, because to some extent they make a point about this person's education. Limited<br /><br />Have fun.</i></span><br /><br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE</span></span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I know we haven't spoken in a very long time. I was
just curious..you're religious, yes? I'm in search of someone to have a
theological debate with..if you're interested</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b><i>ME</i></b></span></span></div>
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><b><i><span style="color: #3e454c;">
Was. Very atheist now. (</span><span style="color: #e69138;">THIS is where this person might have disengaged)</span></i></b><br /><br /><span style="color: #3e454c;">DE</span><br /><span style="color: #3e454c;">Might I ask why? </span><b><i><span style="color: #e69138;">(</span></i></b><b><i><span style="color: #e69138;">This is when I should have known I was a project and this was not going to be a "theological debate.")</span></i></b></span></span><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span><br />
<span class="null"></span><br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Because religions are illogical, based on no evidence
and are not historically, archaeologically, or scientifically supported.<br /><br />DE</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 8.0pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;">Well science usually goes against religion. </span><b style="color: #3e454c;">(and cue church-infused bias)</b><span style="color: #3e454c;"> And as for
the rest..all it took for me was a prayer and faith </span><b style="color: #3e454c;">(and cue church-infused rhetoric)</b><span style="color: #3e454c;">. When people say the bible
contradicts itself, I doubt the apostles sat down to compare notes</span><b><span style="color: red;"> **</span></b><span style="color: #3e454c;"> </span><b style="color: #3e454c;">(and cue this person knows NOTHING about biblical history or chronology). </b><br /><br /><span style="color: #3e454c;">ME</span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Probably the best way to understand all this is to
analyse why other religions are not correct. For instance, why doesn't hinduism
or taoism or islam work for you?<br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;">Tell me what "faith" means to you. (</span><i style="background-color: white;"><span style="color: #e69138;">This is where I should have disengaged. This person not only didn't answer this, they got to refusing to answer.</span><span style="color: #3e454c;">)</span></i><span style="color: #3e454c;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;">To your point above, you're absolutely right, </span><b><span style="color: red;">**</span></b><span style="color: #3e454c;"> the
apostles did not and could not have sat down to compare notes. Matthew was
written by several - many, actually - unknown writers about sixty years after
the time frame it references. Mark is also a compilation of writings by various
writers, many unknown, and dates something like 125 years after the time frame
referenced. </span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Same for Luke and John. Not surprisingly, those gospels do not
agree with each other. Particularly, two of them do not mention "virgin
mary." Also specifically, two of them do not consider "jesus" as
a messiah. But more importantly, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever
such a person lived. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">There are variously 12 to 15 writers quoted to
substantiate "christ," but not one of them was alive at the time and
none of them actually does mention such a person, let alone corroborate. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="http://rosarubicondior.blogspot.co.uk/">This blog</a> post deals specifically with all of these writers. The writer/owner of
this blog is extremely knowledgeable about the subject of religion generally
and specifically christianity, its myths and origins</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="http://rosarubicondior.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-historical-evidence-for-jesus.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998;">http://rosarubicondior.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-historical-evidence-for-jesus.html</span></a><br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--></span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">A couple of interesting points: DNA, and particularly
mitochondrial DNA essentially holds all human information. MDNA is the means by
which ancestry is traced. It is highly accurate. Where we're talking about
"Adam and Eve," mDNA is a critical detail. Two things; all creation
myths have an original couple of some description and the descriptions are
mostly similar. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">The existence of a creation myth in all religious stories is
evidence of people trying to make sense of things they had no means to
understand not of a fact. Where mDNA is concerned, however, if Adam/Eve were a
true story, all humans would HAVE to have a shared marker. Not only that, they
would also have to have a shared marker for "Noah's" wife - given the
mythical floods. We humans do not, however, share mDNA on that scale. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">So this
poses a dilemma. In the biblical story, Adam bites into an apple offered him by
his partner and such is the reason for the fall. Two problems arise from this:
If "god is all knowing and created all things," then such a god would
know its creation would fail; in that sense, punishing an underling for
something you not only put in their way but which you know in advance will
cause them to fail, is psychopathic.<br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--></span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Let's carry on, however. As DNA - mDNA in particular
provides us irrefutable proof adam/eve did not exist, then we have no original
sin. If there is no original sin, there is no need for a 'saviour.' As such,
the necessity for christ is negated. Finally, there's a biological dilemma that
cannot be got around. I hope we will agree spirits and angels and gods are not
understood to have genes and DNA - if they did, they would necessarily be
human. With the "virgin" story, there can only be two logical conclusions. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Human females require X and Y chromosomes to produce male children. Human
females always contribute X. It is not out of the question a human female could
- by a very, very long stretch - asexually reproduce. However, that would
necessarily produce a female child. If we stick to the story of
"Mary" having been made pregnant by a spirit or angel, we must assume
that spirit or angel didn't have the means of providing a Y chromosome. Or, if
it did, it was human, and the whole "virgin" thing goes out the
window, as does the idea such a conception could result in a son of
"god." The bible does, by the way, very much contradict itself on
this point, when it mentions Jesus was a descendant of the royal house of Kind
David...<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Now we have also the dilemmas of essentially
impossible stories. Take Noah: it seems bizarre that a "perfect
being" such as "god" could manage to create such imperfect being
as humans, and having foreknoweldge of how fallible such beings would be,
eventually gets into such a rage it/he decides to drown nearly every one of its
creations and start over. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">To do this, it chooses a very, very ancient man - 600
years old - and his also ancient wife and sons, tasks them with building a
massive boat, despite they have absolutely no experience doing so, so could not
have possibily known how to acquire the right type of wood (which, incidentally
could not have grown in the area described) dry it properly - and in reality
such drying takes years - hew the wood, construct a water-tight vessel, stock
it with 14,000 animals, conservatively, and all the food they'd require -
including meat for the carnivores - keep them healthy, watered (because a
world-wide flood would cause salt and fresh water to mix, and hence poison
these animals) and keep abreast of all the literal poo that would have piled up
several times a day. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">It is, to be blunt, an outrageous story. But, on the very
off chance such a think could have happened, we still have the dilemma of how
such an old man travelled to places he likely did not know existed, acquire
animals like Koalas and kangaroos and iguanas, get them back to his small area
of the middle east, and keep them from dying on the way AND keep them alive for
a year AND place them back where he found them - AND somehow, by what magic,
see them fed from a planet that was flooded for a year and then mate. It's
preposterous.</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Or consider the story of the jews having wandered for
40 years. This also has absolutely no support at all. Start with the area this
is said to have occurred in being about the size of the city of <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Calgary</st1:place></st1:city> within its city
limits. If such an area were mountainous, perhaps a small tribe of people could
hide for that long, but they certainly could not be lost for that long. The
logical approach is to wonder where they got food and goods - because what they
had with them MUST have worn out at points. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">But archaeologically, this story
cannot be true. Even if a tribe of people never made contact with anyone for 40
years, they would have had to dispose of various things as they moved about:
earthenware, animal bones, human bones, clothing, etc. If that clothing were
made from the sheep they might have had with them (drawing on the very real and
very nomadic Bedouin people) there would be remnants of that clothing, and of
tents. But no, there is not a scrap of physical evidence of any tribe having
wandered. <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Given the land area where this is said to have
happened is so small and was, even at the time, surrounded with populated
places - Iran in particular, which was very progressive and modern at the time
- there is no real possibility such a group managed to avoid other humans. They
might have been lost but others weren't and the area was a well-used trade
route. Someone would have stumbled on them or their stuff at some point.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">So, we can prove scientifically the Adam Eve story
cannot be true and we can prove both scientifically and by logic the Noah story
cannot be true, and we can show via archaeology the wandering tribe story is
also not true and we have eliminated the possibility the saviour is necessary,
let alone real.</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Beyond all that, we DO have masses and masses of irrefutable
evidence evolution is a fact. It is undeniable and the only real way to deny it
is to ignore facts. We also have masses and masses of verified, observable facts
proving there was a "big bang," one being the still-audible universal
hiss, in addition to measurable, viewable microwaves (not the kind from a
kitchen appliance, by the way) that essentially lead us literally to the point
of this bang. The fact the human body, indeed everything in us and on us and on
this planet - is made of exactly the same materials found in space, is also
undeniable evidence we are, as the excellent and brilliant Dr. DeGrasse Tyson
says, literally stardust.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">To your point that "science usually goes against religion," that's not exactly correct. Science has shown things proposed
by religion are not, and in many cases cannot be true, but that's not
"going against," which implies a battle of some type. In reality,
science does what it does: it makes and observation, develops a hypothesis,
test and tests and tests, and then retests many more times, to develop a
theory, and then that theory is put to the test to see if it stands or not. In
short, science always, by definition, seeks to disprove itself. Religion,
conversely is very, very resistant to being tested, and when it's premises are
shown to be false - not possibly false but absolutely false, religions react by
digging in, rather than "Oh, well, ok, that's not true."<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<span class="null">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: red;">++</span></b><span style="color: #3e454c;">So here are some things to think about. If the
christian god is omnipotent, all knowing, knows the number of hairs on your
head, knew you before you were born, has a plan for your life and knows the
hour of your birth and death - as is stated in 1Timothy - how do you have free
will? If god knows in advance what you will do in your life, how is it possible
to go against god? And, if god already knows what you'll do and what you do is
part of this plan, what is the point of punishment? </span><br /><br /><span style="color: #3e454c;">To make this more real,
imagine you have a child you love to the core of yourself. Your goal as a
loving parent is to guide that child so it becomes a good, kind, productive
person. This is what christians suggest is god's will, yes? So then what would
your child that you love have to do in order for you to lock it in a basement
and torture it for all eternity? And you do not have the advantage of knowing
in advance your child might "sin." </span><br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--></span></span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Otherwise, many people say one cannot be moral without religion. My question is
this: what is moral about a person who cannot be moral except because there is
a threat of death hanging over them? If we're speaking biologically, and we can
support this with years and years of research with not only animals but with
sociological research of culture and society - moral behaviour is ingrained. </span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span>
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">It
is innate and instinctual and core to societies and cultures surviving. The
idea of morality being impossible without religion does not play out in
reality. To quote Penn Gillette, the magician, when asked what stopped him from
raping and thieving all he wants as an atheist, "I do rape and thieve all
I want, and all I want is none." The bible itself is not by any definition
a source of morals. One need only read the Levitican laws to know following
them would be fully, undeniably immoral. I am sure we agree taking one's unruly
child to the city gates to have the citizens stone it is not a moral act, nor
is doing what the voices in one's head tell one, up to the point where one
straps down one's son with a goal of slitting his throat as a sacrifice to an
invisible man... </span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">We also know by innate morality it is NOT moral to
rape a female and by that force her to marry her rapist, but that is a
prescribed method of wife-getting in the bible. We also know slavery is
horrific, immoral and inescuseable, but not only are the rules for how to keep
slaves, where to get them and what to do if you beat your slave to death laid
out in the old testament, they are reiterated by the jesus character in the new
testament.... and why did the kid have to come fix the errors of his perfect,
omniscient "father?" So. there you have it. I have less to write
about other religions because I have nearly zero experience with them. Beyond
that islam derives from christianity - as in it is a younger religion with the
hallmarks of a schism from christianity, including acknowledging
"jesus" it is decisively a violent religion with a goal of
irradiating non-muslims and coercing existing muslims to a narrow
interpretation of life, or killing them if they don't comply.</span></div>
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Sorry about all the spelling errors.. I was typing
pretty quickly.</span><br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;">God sends challenges. </span><b style="color: #3e454c;">(WHAT?)</b><span style="color: #3e454c;">God gave free will. </span><b><span style="color: red;">++</span></b><span style="color: #3e454c;"> How your
life goes is purely your choice. God sends things and how you deal with it is
your choice which ultimately leads to how you live and where you places your
denomination. I was an atheist at one point..(<b>I don't think so) </b>then a feeling which I can't
really explain came over me and from then I found Jesus..ive found a church and
I've been baptized. Since I gave myself to Jesus, everything changed. </span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;"><br /></span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;"><i><b>People
look to "facts" which really, are just opinions..all opinions</b></i>, some
say God is man made and we created him in our image. Its all how you as a
person perceive things. <o:p></o:p></span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">To me, Jesus is very real and his is alive and he died
me for me. You say the gospels were written by several people? Did these people
know each other? Was it all written over a pint? Don't think so..clearly there
is truth to it..we're unable to get eyewitness accounts..so its all down to
faith, prayer and what you feel within. <b>(Cue confirmation this person has absolutely no background on the bible and how it was written: over 1500 years, three continents and who knows how many people). </b><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;">Danny, go back and read what I wrote. I answered this
"challenges" thing in detail. No, opinions are not facts. Facts are
supported by evidence. Opinions are usually not. </span><br /><br /><span style="color: red;"><b>##</b></span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Question: which god? How did
you determine you have the right god, when there are many to choose from. So,
given the facts I presented you here, how do you logically ignore them? Why is
your god correct and Shiva not? Or thor? What is the evidence you base your
choice on? I'd really like you to answer these four questions.</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I believe in the God that presented himself to me..
God the father, God the son and the holy spirit. And no amount of man made
facts, opinions, whatever will shake my faith. For whatever reason your faith
was shaken. <b>(This is the place I knew there was no debate gonna happen. The second someone says nothing will shake their faith is the second you know you're not speaking with a rational person). </b><br />
<br />
ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">So here's the problem with your statement above here:
You engaged on the basis of a debate. Debates rely on facts and substantiation.
If you refuse to entertain any facts, logic, evidence, support, proof, then you
do not want a debate. HOW did this god present itself to you? HOW do you know
it is the god described by christians not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>?
HOW do you know? Why are you right and Hindus are wrong? I'm curious: Has this
new church of yours charged you to go out and "win hearts for
christ?"</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: red;">##</span></b><span style="color: #3e454c;">I'm not bringing other denominations into this. He
presented himself to me with a wonderful warm and almost indescribable feeling <b>(some people say the same about peeing themselves)</b>.</span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;"><br /></span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;">I knew straight away who it was and what it meant. My proof is my faith and I
tell you ever since I found him I've been smiling like I found gold because he
touched my heart and warmed my soul. <b><i>And yes my girlfriend now attends service
as does her father and step mom. Aha!</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">So how do you know that warm wonderful feeling came
from the christian god? HOW do you know which god "touched" you? To
say you know by faith is to claim to know something you not only do not know,
you cannot know. I understand you're happy, and your experience is exactly that
of ANY religious convert. But this experience of your does NOT confirm which
"god" So I ask you again, HOW do you KNOW which god you're claiming
to know.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I will remind you again, YOU said you wanted a debate.
You can't now back out and refuse to debate because the information is
uncomfortable. Seriously. You're not an idiot. Are you really telling me you
don't care at all about facts and evidence? Are you really saying to me despite
things that cannot be true, you're still going here?</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">
ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Because that's not a rational choice: that's buying in
to group-think and to the feeling of the community you've got at a church. But
what they're selling you - does it matter at all to you there is no evidence
for it? Are youeally saying facts do not matter to you?</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I thought you said there was no evidence? What
evidence do you speak of?<b> (What I didn't know here, but which was revealed later, is this person didn't read ANYTHING I wrote above). </b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Tell me..if I gave you the most compelling, most
beautiful testimony ever...would it change your mind? Would you accept it and
not try to shoot it down?</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Did you accept the conversation because you're
actually searching for answers? Or just because you wanted to try to make me
atheist <b>(This was my "holy shit" moment... I'm not sure why this person figures I'm "searching for answers" or trying to make them an atheist. I made it clear in my first comment I am atheist. This is just such a weird moment, but it was where it really started to smack of church-speak). </b><br />
<br /><b><i>
ME</i></b></span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b><i><o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><i><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I just spent 45 minutes presenting you information.
Did you read it?</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b><i>DE<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b><i>No, im packing as I said. Regardless of the essays, we
may always see differently</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">First of all, You approached me. You don't get to
suggest I have an agenda. You asked me a couple questions and I gave you a very
comprehensive answer.</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Does evidence matter to you?</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Yes. But my evidence is my faith <b>(so no)</b></span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"> <span class="null">Your
opinion is yours but don't suggest I change mine <b>(AKA, don't debate me despite my having asked you to debate).</b></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br />
ME<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Because I can tell you exactly how this is going to
go. I've asked you three or four very specific questions here and you have not
only ignored those, you have ignored my very long, comprehensive information
above. <br /><br />That is not fair. Faith is NOT evidence. It is based on nothing and it
makes claims to knowledge it cannot have.<br /><br />I'm not suggesting you change
anything.</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Just because. Faith isn't your evidence doesn't mean
facts are better <b>(what does one say?)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b><i>And you wrote too many facts I didn't bother reading
it because you to were ignoring my faith.</i></b> </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">All I asked why you dropped god.
Did not need all these facts that too are just here's say. <b>(I answered that in my second comment above).</b><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I asked you some questions. There is no suggestion in
them to change anything. I'm trying to understand how you KNOW what you say you
know. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">What you're doing is called a logical fallacy - and the fallacy you're
committing right now is called "moving the goalposts." It consists of
you making claims, me asking for clarification of those claims and you not
providing clarification AND proposing another question or subject to remove
yourself from having to substantiate what claims you made. <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><i><span style="color: #e69138;">I removed a section here about my background - long, evangelical, generations of it. Boring, and if you've been here before, you know this. </span></i></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">You're asking for proof that obviously doesn't matter
to you anyway <b>(this is a common tactic with the religious - it translates to "I have proof but I'm not going to give it up because you're an asshole)</b>.</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #3e454c;"> I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. We
might as well be arguing that red is black, we're going to get nowhere so to be
honest..this is completely pointless. </span><b><i><span style="color: #3e454c;">Yes facts matter to me..and I listen to
both sides but my faith will never be broken. </span><span style="color: #e69138;">(So no, facts do not matter).</span></i></b><br />
<br /><span style="color: #3e454c;">
ME</span></span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<span class="null">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">No, I am not asking for proof. Pretend I'm a
devout muslim. Now convince me YOUR god is the right one.</span></span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><br /></span></span></span><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">
Seriously. If you can't address this, you have a problem. You cannot say facts
matter at the same time as you claim your "faith" will never be
broken. </span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span>
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">If facts do matter to you, then go back and READ what I spend nearly an
hour writing. The FACTS prove beyond ANY doubt NONE of the characters you say
you believe in CAN or ever did exist. </span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span>
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b>(This is where I become a bit touchy... )</b></span></span><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">
May I caution you to not invite people to debate you when you have no intention
of debating. It is dishonest to make such an approach, refuse all facts put to
you, suggest your testimony will shift someone away from fact and then claim
the discussion YOU invited is pointless when the facts put to you entirely
contradict your unfounded, and unsubstantiated beliefs.</span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"></span></span><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">You're welcome to believe whatever you wish but you are not welcome to
dishonestly engage in "debate," when your goal, which is now very
obvious, is to take someone's time - which in my case was given quite freely -
refuse to acknowledge ANY points put to you, refuse to substantiate your claims
and then retreat with the ridiculous "nothing can shift me." It is
not intelligent.</span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">
I realise you are presently in the excitement phase of being a new christian -
been there, done that, seen it a hundred times. But at some point you either
entirely give up being a rational thinker or you WILL have to confront the
points put to you, starting with HOW do you KNOW this god of yours is the
christian god and not Shiva or Thor or Zeus or the Great Juju in the sea. </span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span>
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">If
you can't answer that very fundamental question - how do you know - then you
cannot expect anyone to consider you credible.</span></span><span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span><br />
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">So tell me again how exactly this emotional experience
you had is for SURE the christian god "touching" you and not some
other god.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">And tell me again how, despite the facts put to you -
DNA, genetics, biology, history, archaeology and science are all wrong and your
"faith" overrides all that evidence.</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /><b>(And now the wife-to-be jumps in...)</b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">K this ends now. I am NE, DE's soon to be [spouse. They were] NOT DEBATING ... just asking one stupid question about why you
changed from god that is all. You DID,NOT need to blow up with [them].</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b>(I'm still speaking to the initial poster here... </b>And I'll wager you are angry at the moment and you
think I'm quite mean for having put these questions to you and for having
presented you quite a bit of information. <b>(this is going to play out shortly)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">This is called cognitive dissonance
and it happens when information - in this case rational, logical information
directly contradicts something you believe. It results in the person feeling
VERY uncomfortable - usually really angry - which they sort by saying the other
person is doesn't have an open mind, or, as you put it above here, won't accept
the proof you could offer, so you won't bother. all that only serves to get you
an out from having to substantiate these claims.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">These stupid facts about this crap just stop cuz you
are upsetting ... and pissing me off. No offense. Believe what you want. I
don't care facts aren't always right but faith is <b>(church-speak 2.0)</b><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Hello NE. DE engaged me in this conversation. This
is his opening post: <i>"I know we haven't spoken in a very long time. I was
just curious..you're religious, yes? I'm in search of someone to have a a
theological debate with..if you're interested."</i><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">As they point out, we haven't spoken in a very long
time. They said they wanted a theological debate. I thought that was an honest
approach but it seems it was not a debate they were after; it was an opportunity
for conversion. You're more than welcome to read this entire thread and I hope
very much you will, and then I hope you two will engage in some honest
discussion between the two of you.</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE have been reading the whole time. And your points I
do not like and I'll it again DE was not debating he has strong faith in his
god WHICH is evidence ... doesn't need to be to you. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Facts are not always
justified. I know the lord is real yet im not 100% committed I see and feel him
in my own way DE never once said you were wrong but you are soo damn
judgmental. <b>(um what? Since when is posting information and asking questions judgemental? Oh... when the cognitive dissonance kicks in. Right). </b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"> And saying what DE thinks is wrong or can't exist. This
conversation stops now and I mean it. Sorry for the rudeness but you are
upsetting DE and I protect those I love. Good byw<br /><br />ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">GREAT.
WHICH god? HOW do you know the "Lord" is real?</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"> I am judgemental about
someone who engages dishonestly, yes. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">THE FACTS say what you believe
cannot exist. I did not say this. I am quoting facts and referencing science,
history, archaeology and logic.</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">It
is rude and dishonest to engage a near stranger in a "debate," when
you have absolutely no intention of debating and every intention of
proselyting. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">So you both know, I have copied this entire conversation and will
be posting it to my blog, as I always do with these types of
"conversations." </span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Neither of you will be identified in any way, and
my blog does not identify me, although many people who read it know I am the
writer. The reason I post these conversations is to point out the flaws in
these religious arguments - and particularly the refusal to read, let alone
consider the facts. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">May I say how really despicable it is to engage someone
like this, and then resort to name calling.<br /><br />DE/NE</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 6.0pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">What you have quoted are not facts its called being
too damn opinionated. Just drop this and stop replying like I asked because <b><i>I
am getting mad (cognitive dissonance, with the effect I noted would occur). </i></b>and I do not like being disrespectful to older people. <br /><br />Facts
facts facts can only get you so fair in life... faith love gets you everywhere.
And you are not allowed you post this without consent. <b>(Yes, I can)<br /></b>DE wasnt debating just
one simple question and you ran over with atheist opinion <b>(or a bunch of facts)</b> Now please stop.
And better not post this because its against the law without him saying its
okie <b>(nope, it isn't. And that's "Okay," by the way). </b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null">
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Nope.
Facts. It's not my opinon there is not only no evidence for your god or any
god, nor is it my opinion there is no evidence at all for christ and proof that
adam and eve did not and could not have existed. I told you, Danny. Cognitive
dissonance. You engaged ME. YOU said YOU wanted a theological debate. A debate
is not what you're doing here.<br /><br />DE/NE</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 6.0pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="background-color: white; color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 13.963635444641113px; white-space: pre-wrap;">All im saying now is enough please. And dont you dare post this personal crap on your blog</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="background-color: white; color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 13.963635444641113px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="background-color: white; color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 13.963635444641113px; white-space: pre-wrap;">because thats stirring up trouble with he nor I need.</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<i><br /></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I am going to post it. You
will not be identified in ANY way. Not city, not gender not work. Nothing.</span><br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I gave my views, you gave yours. You've been told many times that this is done now. I wanted a nice conversation where both sides could be seen..not you attacking me for having a god that you chose to leave <b>(oooohhh nice attack!)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Does not matter its DE's words meaning DE has rights and you cannot post what DE as said NOT ANY OF IT. Post your parts but not DE's.<br /><br />ME</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">I am NOT attacking you. I am pointing out the flaws in yoru
argument and the fact you can't substantiate your claims. ANY time you want to
substantiate your claims, you're more than welcome. I can absolutely post it
and I will. It will not identify you in any way.<br /><br />DE/NE</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I've gave MY POINTS! I BELIEVE BECAUSE HE CAME TO ME!
JUST AS HE ONCE CAME TO YOU <b>(Church-speak)</b></span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Again
DE's words meaning you cannot not because you have no consent grow up please and
learn the rights and laws... you can post what you say yes but not DE's</span></span><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">You
chose to leave..its because of people like you that my faith and love for him
only grows stronger <b>(I'm not sure even what this is supposed to mean, but it's church-speak)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I don't have to hide my believes..and I don't call
people out for worshipping a different God to me. That's their choice..who am I
to tell them any different? Who am I to say they're wrong?</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Regardless of beliefs, they're my fellow man..and all
I can do is love them and look,after them as best I can until we're all called
home <b>(except for the atheists who ask questions that make you uncomfortable, I assume?)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">This is called a personal conversation and you are
very rude for saying your gonna post this. Post what you say and believe but
dont you dare post his even tho you take DE's name off. It is still wrong.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">And whether you once had Jesus..whether you're still
trying to find him or whether you cast him away from you..he loves you and
always will <b>(oh for shit's sake..... )<br /></b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">HOW do you KNOW? Did you see this person? IF you're
relying on a feeling, then you don't have any solid reason to know. Feelings
are not reliable and they are certainly not evidence. Please don't presume my
experience. I was raised in that environment. I did not choose it.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c;"><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">DE/NE </span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I was as well I was forced to believe. As I grew up I
did not want to follow it. But I do know its real just because you dont doesn't
mean it isn't <b>(wow. Stunning logic... also known as drowning)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">You always have a choice! That's the point! You chose
to leave..not because as I can work out because you felt forced but because
your apparent facts <b>(yeah, "apparent" facts)</b> told you otherwise. How would your eleven generations feel
about your sudden atheism? <b>(They don't like it. So what?)</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME <b>(still trying to get this person to understand they cannot confirm which god they're talking about...)</b>Exactly. Who are you to say they're wrong. But how do
you know YOU are right and they are not?? </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">What if you ARE wrong and Allah is the right god? HOW
do you know you've made the right choice? How do you substantiate there is such
a thing as what you call "home?" You do understand you can see fully
400 GALAXIES with your naked eye? If earth is a tiny, tiny, tiny planet on a
tiny arm of a tiny galaxy in a tiny part of the cosmos and there are 400
galaxies viewable and all of those could potentially have planets like this
one, WHERE is your "heaven"?</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null">
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE<br />
Heaven is not of this world..as Jesus said he is not of this world. Heaven is
Gods home, beyond our known universe. <b>(Church-speak spoken by someone who has no science to speak of).</b></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">The facts are these and these are NOT opinion. DNA
proves the adam eve story cannot be true. DNA also proves the noah story cannot
be true. History, archaeology and the 48 historians alive and writing at the
time jesus was supposed to have lived provide NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that person
ever lived. History and archaeolgy DO substantiate the Council of Nicea has a
very specific, written-down agenda that included erradicating the jewish
population of the time - and having a dead messiah - which They MADE UP - was a
great tool.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I believe what my heart knows is real. And I know you
are pushing and pushing to say what you say is apparently right. But who are
you to say you are right huh??? JUST YOU. But that's you I am not telling you
what to think or say or believe but I know you arw now being a bully and
attacking because we are rebelling your thoughts but we arw who we are grow up
and deal with it and stop replying if your really mature</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME <b>(Stunned by that writer's really bad grammar and sentence structrure. WHY is it always the uneducated who fall for religion. I know; rhetorical).</b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Again, that's nice but it's not evidence.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I said syop replying</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Do you not understand</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Dont reply</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Hindus also believe with their hearts as do muslims
and zoroastrians and mormons. NOT evidence.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I'm not attacking. I am asking you to substantiate
your claims here. I am also pointing out feelings are not evidence. Neither of
those is an attack.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE/NE<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">Jeez... I guess english doesnt get threw <b>(sic)</b> to you... ma
am I have said enough drop it is that too hard or what</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /><br />ME</span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">if you're going to engage someone who made it
very clear in my FIRST post back to you is an ATHEIST, then do not be surprised
when you get yourself deep into stuff you haven't thought about. </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">I have. All my
life.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<br />You know what..and this proves im pissed off..DNA can
suck my balls, alright. I Believe WHAT I WANT TO BELIEVE! ACCEPT IT. Goodnight.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">ME<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">But I'd sure love to hear this heartfelt testimony
that will convert me.</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">DE<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="null"><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;">If you reply you will be blocked. Have a good life
apparently you have without him. Piss off</span></span><span class="null"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<i> </i><br /><span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><br /><b>And thus concludes a lesson in what happens when people join churches, get all warm and fuzzy up in there, take on what seems to be a church challenge to go find a non-believer and hit 'em up.<br /><br />It's called cognitive dissonance and it results in a high level of discomfort when what one believes is shown to be crap. Usually results in anger and very often in insults, screaming and yelling and stomping about, kinda like what happened here.</b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b><br /></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #3e454c; font-family: Helvetica;"><b>It's predictable and annoying, but hilarious in a weird way. </b></span></div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-26776325721248260562013-12-31T20:06:00.000-07:002014-01-01T18:42:01.004-07:00I DO believe in pink unicorns, damnit! It's my right! <h5 style="line-height: 12.85pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span class="fwb"><span style="color: #141823; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="color: #141823; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">You won't be surprised to know I've engaged in yet another "conversation" with people who seem not to like logic or facts. </span></span></span></span></h5>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uSuuh1hmUhM/UsOFUECvlLI/AAAAAAAAMK4/JbXpodhjCGk/s1600/Voltaire.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em; text-align: justify;"><img border="0" height="299" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uSuuh1hmUhM/UsOFUECvlLI/AAAAAAAAMK4/JbXpodhjCGk/s400/Voltaire.jpg" width="400" /></a></div>
<h5 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;">
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 17.125px;"><br /></span></div>
<span class="fwb"><div style="line-height: 12.85pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: normal; line-height: 12.85pt;">Despite the discussion having launched over this (IMO) really exploitive and non-scientific (that part isn't my opinion) book, it rapidly went to "everyone has the right to their beliefs." </span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 17.125px;"><br /></span></div>
<div style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt; text-align: justify; text-decoration: none;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;">I will ask you right now, dear reader, to think for a second what that statement really means. EVERYONE. Has the RIGHT to their BELIEFS. EVERYONE necessarily, then, includes every crazy person who as done any horrifying, terrifying, brutal, murderous thing because of their beliefs. Everyone. Parents who choose prayer over medicine and allow their children to die whilst waiting for 'god'; men who stone to death the women they have raped, and cut the hands of starving cildren accused of theft when they attempt to feed themselves, because their prophet says it is the right thing to do; priests who rape children.... EVERYONE</span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 17.125px;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: normal; line-height: 12.85pt; text-decoration: none;"><div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;">However, there was, later, a pronouncement that I did NOT have the right to my beliefs - pink unicorns, for which there are many drawings and stories and even effigies and images - because MY beliefs are insulting, rude and assaultive. Hm. So NOT everyone. </span></div>
</span><div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"><div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;">I've cleaned up the grammatical and spelling errors everywhere (that I noticed them).</span></div>
</span><div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="fwb" style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;">JK</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-weight: normal;"> </span></span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: normal; line-height: 12.85pt;">shared a video.</span></div>
</span></h5>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;">Wow....this
film looks incredible...</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;">
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn_bRrxIGY8https://www.facebook.com/HeavenIsForRealMovie" style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"><b>Heaven Is For Real</b></a></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;">"I
see it, so I believe it. Do you?"</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"> </span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn_bRrxIGY8https://www.facebook.com/HeavenIsForRealMovie" style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #373e4d; font-family: Helvetica; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"></span></span><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #373e4d; font-family: Helvetica; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"></span></span><span class="58cm"><b><span style="color: #141823; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Heaven Is For Real</span></b></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"> </span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: 'Maiandra GD';"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;">is in </span><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 17.125px;">theatres</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 12.85pt;"> Easter Weekend 2014.</span></span></div>
<div style="border-top: solid #EBEBEB 1.0pt; border: none; mso-border-top-alt: solid #EBEBEB .75pt; mso-element: para-border-div; padding: 6.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; line-height: 11.4pt; padding: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">SK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I read the book about all of the
things this little boy saw. There's no way I could deny life after our time on
earth. Such an amazing thing we have is knowledge of god and that there's
someone looking out for us.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Yeah, except for the extensive, faulty
premises and the idea of relying on a child's experience in a coma. There is
NOTHING the least scientific in this disaster.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">I could write a book on how appalling and manipulative and unscientific and
frankly garbage this book/movie is.</span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
<o:p></o:p></span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">SK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">You have
your beliefs, and I have mine. <b><i>(well, no, I have evidence the writer
ignored good science, which is not a belief)</i></b> That's what is great about
this world! I don't need scientific facts to prove to me that god is real <b><i>(oh
dear...)</i></b>. I have faith. If you need science to believe in things then
that is totally fine! But as for me, sometimes I believe in things that science
can't explain, and it's helped me see life in a beautiful way. If you're
beliefs make you happy, that is awesome! But mine make me happy too, and that's
also awesome! :) <br /><b><i><br />(1. what things can't science explain, or at least make a decent stab at explaining? 2. Atheists do not have beliefs. A-theism is "without beliefs" or without gods. Our sole premise the lack of evidence for any god(s) makes bowing down to it/them ridiculous. 3. Heroin, which also helps people believe in things that aren't real, also makes some people very happy, and like religion, addicted and dependent)</i></b></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><strong style="line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="http://www.academia.edu/2580560/Book_Review_Heaven_is_for_Real_by_Todd_Burpo" target="_blank"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Book Review: “Heaven is for Real” by Todd Burpo</span></a></span></strong></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span class="caption"><span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F&h=SAQHKPxb2AQElUlJn4ORDAVxYgH9OhMxafeFb0bamcYpsFQ&s=1" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">www.academia.edu</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">Book
Review: “Heaven is for Real” by Todd Burpo<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>So, if I have faith I will see a pink
unicorn this year, real, true faith, you say that is fine and normal?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">JK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">I would
appreciate if you guys don't do this kind of insulting/antagonistic debating on
my page. <b><i>(Ok, so I am not allowed to clarify this person's statement. Got it. Also, that is bullshit)</i></b></span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">I respect all beliefs and I would appreciate anyone choosing to
comment on my posts have the same courtesy for each other...or don't post </span><b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"><i>(Bullshit this person respects all beliefs! BULLSHIT. IF that were true, this person would be on the front line of protesting their country's contribution to 10 years of US invasion in the Middle East. The second part of this post - the "please shut up" part really means "sure as hell don't ask anyone if they really do mean ALL beliefs when they SAY all beliefs")</i></b><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">. </span><span class="uficommentbody"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">
</span>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">I'm
not saying anything about whether its right, wrong, true or untrue. It looks
like an interesting film and could be very positively inspiring to many in a
day and age that hope is hard to come by. Take it all for what you will, but
please don't be antagonistic. Thank you.</span></div>
</span>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<b><div style="text-align: justify;">
<b><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Maiandra GD;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">(I just want to point out here that I
have been asking questions up to this point, with the exception of my pointed
statement about the film, which I followed with a review of the film. This
allegation I'm insulting and </span><span style="font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;">antagonistic</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> and rude continues as does this
suggestion I "have to be right." It is ridiculous. I am trying to
understand these people and their position on "live and let live" by
asking what they mean and how what they mean applies.)</span></span></b></div>
</b></span><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="uficommentbody"><b><br /></b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">SK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Why does it matter so much that you
have to be right and I have to be wrong? We both have different opinions about
religion and faith. Who cares? You don't have to be right. I'm not wrong,
you're not wrong. Let's leave it at that.<b><i>(Um. when did this I'm right, you're wrong thing happen, exactly? Oh... right now... I see)</i></b><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"> </span></span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence <b><i>(In
case it isn't obvious to all, this is a statement and it is not aimed at
anyone, and doesn't criticize anyone)<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>For you they do, and that's
fine....for others they do not.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Extraordinary
claims always require extraordinary evidence or they have absolutely no
credibility. <b><i>(sorry, I personified...)</i></b></span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">This particular book - its story and contents have been scrutinized
- properly - with the lens of neuroscience and have come up severely lacking. I
appreciate this story makes people feel good - but so does chocolate, which is
also dangerous if over-consumed.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-scL_y0B8cdw/UsS-jPliSMI/AAAAAAAAMLI/Jvwq0OqLuIU/s1600/Religionsummedupinonecard.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="224" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-scL_y0B8cdw/UsS-jPliSMI/AAAAAAAAMLI/Jvwq0OqLuIU/s320/Religionsummedupinonecard.jpg" width="320" /></a><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">The phenomenon of people "seeing heaven"
as a result of major trauma is world wide. HOWEVER, the visions people have in
that state are decidedly NOT uniform; they are heavily dependent on the
person's culture, religion (if they have one) and ethnicity.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">If THIS particular heaven did exist, then those experiences
would necessarily be uniform and there would be mass shifts in people's
religions. This is not the case.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">The simple fact these experiences differ
specifically along religious paradigms must be enough for an intelligent person
to question the validity of such a story.</span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody">
</span>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><div style="text-align: justify;">
<b style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><i>(Sorry for again pointing out the
obvious, but I am making a statement here, again, not aimed at anyone in
particular - although obviously for the consumption of those participating - and
am not making a criticism of anyone. I am making points about the film and what
it seeks to say)</i></b></div>
</b></span><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">But, if
extraordinary claims do NOT require evidence, then we are free to make any
claim at all and expect others to accept that claim - and to see any questions
about such a claim as "antagonistic?" I don't think so. If that's the
case, then we must accept ever crazy serial killer who claims "god"
spoke to them and they were just doing "god's" bidding.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">Either all extraordinary claims require evidence or
our judicial system is a complete failure.</span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Well, I don't
know how it is in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region>
but the US Judicial system is kind of a complete failure (just sayin'). I
appreciate what you have to say. And I appreciate the references. I am genuinely
intrigued by this sort of thing because it is very interesting, I have seen
documentaries about children "remembering past lives" also which is
another odd phenomenon that occurs quite frequently...is it true? Who the hell
knows! <b><i>(um....neuroscientists?... ) </i></b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<div style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Is it interesting? You betcha!</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">But I don't appreciate the blatant attack on an
individual's level of intelligence just because they don't agree with what you
are saying or the research you are providing as reference though... <b><i>(I
was substantiating THEIR statement with that link.... not everyone reading,
myself included, was familiar with this alleged mathematical "proof"
of god)</i></b> so can we please ease off that particular tone?</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<br /><span class="apple-converted-space"></span>
<span class="apple-converted-space">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span></span>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">(</span><b style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><i>WHAT
blatant attack on WHICH individual??? WHEN did I mention ANYONE'S intelligence??
I just used my word processor's "find" option and there is no mention
of "intelligence" anywhere before this poster writes the word and
makes the allegation. I SAID, "The simple fact these experiences differ specifically along religious paradigms must MUST BE ENOUGH FOR AN INTELLIGENT PERSON TO QUESTION THE VALIDITY OF SUCH A STORY)</i></b></span></span></div>
<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span></span><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="apple-converted-space"><b><i><br /></i></b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">No, it is
not true. There is endless science - good, fact-based, falsifiable, verifiable,
observable, repeatable science on both these subjects. One <b>(One. Not you. ONE; general)</b> need only have the courage to expose
their "beliefs" to research and knowledge.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">As for faith, it is simply a way of claiming to know
things one cannot know, and to bring that even further, once one DOES know a
thing, one no longer has faith; one has evidence. <b><i>(Yes, this is direct. But direct does not mean wrong, nor does it mean offensive)</i></b></span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">As I say,<b> I appreciate stories like this make people
feel all warm and fuzzy but that does not mean such stories are true.</b> Again,
there is a LOT of reviews of this book, from a "christian"
standpoint, where there is no analysis AND a rejection of science, and
neuroscience specifically, and a rejection of the FACT that people from other
religious paradigms have experiences that "prove" their version of
"heaven" is true, when that version bears no relation at all to the
versions that appear in American culture.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">It is the only logical stance <b>one</b> can have, as a thinking person, to acknowledge there is no way
"proof" of "heaven" experienced by a muslim person or a buddhist
person or a christian person can all be true.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">I made no "blatant attack" on anyone's
intelligence. I don't care whether anyone agrees or not. My point is <b>one - anyone, nobody in particular </b>-
must be intelligent enough to acknowledge all religions and all these
experiences people claim to be true and to be proof of their version of heaven
cannot actually be true.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">I asked a valid question up there. If we must accept
other people's faith, then people must accept mine - that there are pink unicorns,
and I am sure of this because I feel it, I have seen pictures of them and read
stories of them and I know in my heart they are real. My faith cannot be
attacked either, because faith somehow sits outside intelligence and to ask any
questions that might rock my faith are to blatantly attack me.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Right? <b><i>(later, someone threw this example back at me as being rude and in their face.... Oh, hello wall, meet back)</i></b></span></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
<o:p></o:p></span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="uficommentbody"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">CR</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Gödel’s Ontological Proof.</span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"></span><br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">This is mathematical proof that God exists. German mathematician Kurt Gödel
proposed this theory that a higher power must exist. Christoph Benzmüller and
Bruno Woltzenlogel Paleo have proven that Gödel’s theory is mathematically
correct. There for it is a scientifically provable fact.</span></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">
<o:p></o:p></span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Oh Hell (exasperated sigh).....you two
have fun with this....<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">CR</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">No I
believe the argument has ended before it begins. I accept her belief in
science. <b><i>(Just so it is clear, one does not "believe" in science. One
can rely on science becasuse science specifically seeks to DISprove itself. The
goal of all scientific research is to find the holes in current understandings
in order that scientific understanding can improve. This is not what belief is.
Belief exists regardless of fact and contrary to fact)</i></b></span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">I have presented a provable scientific theory that supports both of our
beliefs and the only way to argue that would be for her to go against her
beliefs and claim</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">science doesn't matter or to provide me with a provable
mathematical and scientific theory that God does not exist. But like her belief
about God that theory doesn't exist.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="apple-converted-space"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Here's the background on Charles's
information:</span></div>
<div style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<a href="http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/scientists-use-computer-to-mathematically-prove-goedel-god-theorem-a-928668.html" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">http://www.spiegel.de/.../scientists-use-computer-to...</span></a></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/scientists-use-computer-to-mathematically-prove-goedel-god-theorem-a-928668.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none;">Holy Logic: Computer Scientists 'Prove' God Exists - SPIEGEL ONLINE</span></a></span></strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span class="caption"><span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;"><a href="http://www.spiegel.de/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;">www.spiegel.de</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: start;">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Two scientists have formalized a theorem regarding the existence of God penned b</span><span class="textexposedshow" style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #898f9c;">y mathematician Kurt Gödel. But the God angle is somewhat of a red herring -- the real step forward is the example it sets of how computers can make scientific progress simpler.</span></span><br />
<span class="textexposedshow" style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #898f9c;"><br /></span></span></div>
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">This is ontological "proof," that does not address WHICH god, nor
does it provide a means to disprove all the 4000 or so "gods"
proposed by humans.</span></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
<o:p></o:p></span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<i><br /></i></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<b style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #444444;"><i>(Just to simplify, this mathematical
theory does not prove 'god' exists necessarily. It would be more apt to say
'gods,' plural. There is a clue in "formalised a theorem...".)</i></span></b></div>
<span class="textexposedshow" style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="textexposedshow" style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="textexposedshow"><b><br /></b></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">CR</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sorry Julie but I will not debate you
for no amount of proof would be sufficient and for me no amount of proof is
needed.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">I wasn't inviting you to debate. I
posted background on your proposal.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">But, as you've brought up science, which seeks to disprove itself in order to
better its theories, it seems inappropriate to say you need no proof to support
your position. Falsifiability is core to good science. Anything else is simply
pretending to know things one cannot know.</span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
<o:p></o:p></span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">SK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Look, the
bottom line is we all believe different things. Julie, if you believe in a pink
unicorn, go right ahead! I appreciate your opinion but I stated mine as well. I
don't care if you think you're right, I don't care what science says. <b><i>(This
is very sad in 2013/2014)</i></b></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"></span><br />
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">To me, I've</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">experienced things that make it so I could/would never
deny God or life after our life on earth ends. If I believe stories like this
like many others do, leave us be! We all have beliefs. Like I said earlier,
let's leave it at that!</span></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">
<o:p></o:p></span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="uficommentbody"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 11.4pt;"><i>(Just to clarify the definition of what a miracle is: </i></b></div>
<b style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"><b style="line-height: 11.4pt;"><i><span style="background-color: white; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.800000190734863px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px;">A </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.800000190734863px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px;">miracle</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.800000190734863px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px;"> is an event not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature and consequently attributed to a </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural" style="background-color: white; background-image: none; color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.800000190734863px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px; text-decoration: none;" title="Supernatural">supernatural</a><span style="background-color: white; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.800000190734863px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px;">, especially </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God" style="background-color: white; background-image: none; color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.800000190734863px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px; text-decoration: none;" title="God">divine</a><span style="background-color: white; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 12.800000190734863px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px;">, agency.</span><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-1" style="background-color: white; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 1em; unicode-bidi: -webkit-isolate;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle#cite_note-1" style="background-image: none; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none; white-space: nowrap;">[1]</a></sup></i></b></b><b></b><br />
<b>
<i></i></b>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<b><i><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: x-small; line-height: 13.328125px;"><br /></span></i></b></div>
<b><i><span style="font-size: x-small;">
</span><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-1" style="background-color: white; font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 1em; unicode-bidi: -webkit-isolate;"><div style="text-align: justify;">
<b style="background-color: transparent;"><i><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-1" style="line-height: 1em; unicode-bidi: -webkit-isolate;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say there is NO possibility this person's experiences of "things that make it so I could/would never deny god or life after our life on earth ends," qualify as "Not ascribable to human power or the laws of nature," and ARE, consequently, easily attributed to HUMAN intervention and help.)</span></sup></i></b></div>
</sup></i></b><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="uficommentbody"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Well, I'd
leave it alone if "leave us be" didn't also apply to those who
believe it is right to stone a woman to death for the crime of being raped, or
to those who believe it is right to mutilate little girls' genitals, or to
those who believe it is right to pray over their sick and dying children rather
than take them to the doctor, or to those who believe it is right to forcibly
marry off girls to men who already have five or eight other wives AND kick the
young boys out of the colony to fend for themselves rather than those boys
being competition to group abuse and child rape.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">Do you really believe "let them be" should
also apply to people who hurt, abuse and kill others when their reason is
"god" said it is right?</span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><span class="uficommentbody"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">And for the
record, I would absolutely accept the proof of god - any of them - doing what
it/he/she is alleged to be able to do and rearranging the stars into a pattern
that says "I am your god."</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">However, until the allegedly-all-creating-all-knowing</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">"god"
does that, there is no reason to believe in it/them; to do otherwise is to live
in a type of voluntary north Korea, where your entire life is dedicated the
Dear Leader and his Son/replica of himself, with the constant threat of death
by burning for doing it wrong. <b><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f40TRJl5vvI">Full disclosure: I owe this little bit of excellent prose likening 'god' to the North Korean dictator, to the wonderful, late Christopher Hitchens.</a> (*click for video)</b></span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span><span class="uficommentbody"></span>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; line-height: 15.1875px;"><br /></span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody">
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--></span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><o:p></o:p></span><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Okay...I am
putting my foot down. Enough is enough. Back down. Julie you are bringing up so
many completely unrelated topics its is ridiculous. <b><i>(Which topics are unrelated? I've
been asking questions and responding to what others have written)</i></b><i>.</i><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
</div>
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">There are heinous issues with our world today and the people in
it. That is not being disputed. Nor is it being disputed that many people do
horrible things in the name of "God(s)"...but that is NOT the root of
what this film or book is trying to give people. It is a message of hope.
Nothing more. </span></div>
<br /><span class="uficommentbody"></span>
<span class="uficommentbody">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"></span></span>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">Stop turning anything spiritually based and intriguing that I may post onto MY
TIMELINE into</span><b style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> a "pro-heinous
religious acts" accusation <i>(Well,
actually, I ASKED if these people actually believe what they are saying, when
they say everyone has the right to believe what they will. I didn't accuse
anyone of anything; I asked them to clarify what they meant. I do realise this
is the portion of the program where they have got themselves uncomfortably
lodged up against a corner....)</i></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;"> on my page. None of us (that have
spoken on this thread) are supporting those things and I'd appreciate it if you
all knock it off....</span></span></span></div>
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 11.4pt;">
</span></span><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>As always, I am bemused by the
termination of this subject when the realities of "Live and let live"
invade.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jlkuntz/posts/10202256998883014?comment_id=78201065&offset=0&total_comments=27&notif_t=share_reply"></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><b><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Its being terminated because Im now
annoyed at the fact that you won't just get off it. You all believe
differently. Just get off it already and leave the goddamned bone alone.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-align: justify;">
<b style="line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"><u>This is the private continuation of this discussion:</u></span></b></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<b><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">ME</span></b><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;">
<a href="http://fora.tv/2007/07/04/Clash_Between_Faith_and_Reason/" target="_blank">Please spend an hour listening to this speech by Sam Harris. </a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I'm not
happy to argue but I AM very put off by being told to shut up when my
well-researched opinions happen not to be popular. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I
appreciate you weren't looking for a discussion. However, discussions are
important, particularly when the subject at hand has a very solid, scientific
explanation. It is not intelligent to shut down a discussion because the
information is counter to what one currently possesses. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><a href="http://fora.tv/2007/07/04/Clash_Between_Faith_and_Reason/" target="_blank">http://fora.tv/2007/07/04/Clash_Between_Faith_and_Reason/</a></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: #F7F7F7; mso-line-height-alt: 8.0pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/messages/1131787159" target="_blank"><span style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; border: 1pt none windowtext; color: #3b5998; padding: 0cm; text-decoration: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1028" type="#_x0000_t75"
alt="" href="https://www.facebook.com/messages/1131787159" target=""_blank""
style='width:240.25pt;height:180.35pt' o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image006.jpg"
o:href="https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDimhP48I1_m5sk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fora.tv%2Fthumbnails%2F1328_320_240.jpg&jq=100"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">I will take a look at that. I don't have a problem
with your well thought out research. I do have a problem that you were actively
on the war path and determined to fight.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background: white; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 7.15pt;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">Sometimes
its best to just back off. </span><b style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"><i>(AKA, shut up when you make points that
shine a light on the posters' inability to support their arguments).</i></b></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; text-align: justify;">I dont always post things for discussion. And I appreciate it if people
would take the hint and "be nice" when I ask nicely...the first
time...</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"></span><br />
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">
<o:p></o:p></span>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I didnt
mean to be as harsh as I was...but you kinda walked right into it by willfully
refusing to ease up.... <b>(Pretty sure -
almost positive - the other parties in this discussion did NOT get the same
message).<o:p></o:p></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">You know
me well enough now to know that<b><i> I am always open to a private message
conversation</i> (I've highlighted this because it becomes important shortly)</b>
about such things, nothing irritates me more than public comments that are
easily misinterpreted as aggressive and confrontational...because , as youve
seen, it turns into arguments. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">Why is it a
"warpath" or a "fight" when someone like me, with a
lifetime of engagement in an evangelical family, spends more than seven years
understanding that paradigm, comes to a very researched and substantiated
conclusion that paradigm and all others like it are false, and on that wealth
of experience and research, asks a person making a statement to substantiate
what they've said?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Here's the
thing JK: no person should "ease up" when they see information that
is FALSE being presented as true. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I know
you. I know you would NOT stand by or ease up in the face of something you know
was wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">I post things that are interesting to me onto
my wall, as is my right, I in no way say I believe every single thing 100%. <b><i>(Ok,
so why so disturbed by the conversation?)</i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; mso-line-height-alt: 8.0pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 15px; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt; text-align: justify;">They are posted to help inspire and promote positive thinking and
positive action....not to destroy positive sentiment and belief in things that
cannot be proven...that is not my cause to champion and I would appreciate it
if you stop practically accusing "spiritual & religious based"
ites (sic.. I don't know what word goes here) as somehow being blaketedly (sic)
supporting of all the heinous things done in the name of religion and God....
and just because we cannot prove something now is a weak argument...it doesn't
make things untrue, it means we cannot prove it to our knowledge right at this
moment in time...that is all.... </span><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"></span><br />
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><b><i>(Except that neuroscience has excellent,
science-based, observable theories for what happens in an NDE and why those
vary so widely, dependent on culture, language and religion). </i></b>There was
once a time when using leeches and bleeding people was
"scientifically" supported as the best way to treat certain
illnesses....we NOW know differently....<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">....so yeah....Im sorry if I upset you with
how I shut down the conversation....but Im so done with that whole conversation....<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">Fine. But if they're posted
publicly, you might anticipate comments.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I did NOT
accuse anyone of blanketly "supporting of all the heinous things done in
the name of religion and God." <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I ASKED
them if they REALLY believe that statement (the one about "everyone has
the right to their beliefs).<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">One cannot
say, "live and let live," but engage in wars, or call out parents who
allow their children to die <b><i>(by relying on prayer)</i></b> rather than
seek medical attention. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I asked
your poster to state whether he/she ACTUALLY meant what they said - because I
KNOW, if they really thought about it, they do NOT. What they mean is
"don't point out the fallacies of my statements; it pisses me off." <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">By the
way, leeches are still used, very successfully, in many hospitals to treat
flesh that has necrotised. Leeches are a common treatment for people suffering
diabetes and whose skin tends to die off. Leeches are very effective in
removing the dead flesh and, thanks to their saliva, very effectively and in a
sterile manner, keep the wound from bleeding.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">Dude...you are drawing so many false
conclusions from everything they said...</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">they
simply were saying they DO believe in a God....THAT IS ALL....the fact that you
feel its your right to railroad people that matter to me all because they
believe in a God is what pisses me off <b><i>(I don't "feel it is my right to
railroad people... because they believe in god," but I do KNOW it is my
responsibility to ask questions when people say things that will lead them to a
much different logical conclusion than they mean, if they were to actually
THINK about what they said/wrote)<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">There are some really
excellent researched, peer-reviewed articles on the phenomenon of near death
experiences (NDE).</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">There are
also some very good reviews of that book - those reviewing it from a scientific
standpoint and from an ethical standpoint where it concerns capitalising on the
experience of a four-year-old who, seven years previously, had a pretty
significant medical event.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">I'm not drawing ANY
conclusions. None of my questions were answered.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">and no, leeches are not effective treatment
for 90% of the ailments we USED TO use them to treat....so that counterargument
you present is splitting hairs and a weak argument at best<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">I have no issue with their
belief in god. I have an issue with people having no means of substantiating
"god" and being angry when someone says, "How did you come to
that conclusion?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"></span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">About the leeches: <a href="http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/modern-leeching/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/modern-leeching/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"></span></a> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">I also have a big issue with
people who say everyone has the right to their beliefs but won't follow that
through to the logical conclusion, which, in our recent past, (referring to
9/11) MUST include very religious people who are convinced of their version of
heaven, flying airplanes into buildings. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Answer
this: If it is true we all have the right to our beliefs, then why the hell is
the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> still in the <st1:place w:st="on">Middle East</st1:place> and why the hell is TSA presuming we are all
terrorists?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">If one has
the right to their beliefs, then we cannot, to use your term, split hairs:
either beliefs are without consequence or they are not.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">but ultimately Julie I feel like you are hell
bent on a fight. I really dont have time or energy for this. . . AND further
more...I DO NOT post them publically. I post them only so my "friends"
can see them if they so choose to subscribe to me. I do anticipate
comments...not harsh debates and blatant attacks on what is clearly intended to
be a positive thing.... <b><i>(well, I am an accepted "friend"
of this poster, so um, they might expect comments on that basis)</i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">I'm not bent on a fight but
I am very interested in statements being followed to their logical conclusion.</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">No....it is pre</span><span style="font-family: Maiandra GD;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">tty clear you aren't just bent
on a fight but "Hell-bent" on one.... </span></span><b><i><span style="font-family: Maiandra GD;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">(Ok... has devolve to ad hominem, meaning now going after my </span><span style="font-size: 15px;">character</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> and my motivations - which is to say presuming motivation - rather than sticking to the points of the </span><span style="font-size: 15px;">discussion</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">... but back against the wall requires alternative measures, apparently)</span></span></i></b></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">I realise this is a
difficult subject for you, JK. I get it. But difficulty aside, as you are not
unintelligent or dishonest, you must at least think about what it all means.</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I realise
there is pushback from some of your friends and family but that isn't any real,
or honest, impediment to really understanding what it means to say "we all
have the right to our beliefs." I say it is critical to understand why
that simply is not right and cannot be right. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">If it is
right, there are sure a lot of dead American soldiers fighting against people
who should, by that statement, have the right to their beliefs.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">Do you understand why this
is important?</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">They have a right to believe in God....that
is ALL that was said or implied...really bottom line. That's all anyone is
saying. You are giving far too much implication to their words where NOTHING
was actually said to support those accusation. They can believe </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><b><i>(Ok.
I'm frustrated now. Belief in 'god,' whichever one chooses to believe in, is
usually not a benign thing, and when it is, the people who have such benign
beliefs call themselves "spiritual." For most people, belief in 'god'
comes with a certain code and dogma, so that belief is not "all.")</i></b></span><b><i><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><b><i><br /></i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">Yes, you do. <b><i>(I
meant "they")<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">So do
those members of the Taliban. They believe in what they want. It does hurt
people. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">So do
people who are prayer-only fundamentalists; their children die. Does their
right to their beliefs override morality?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><a href="http://fora.tv/2007/07/04/Clash_Between_Faith_and_Reason/">Anyway, if you
have the time tomorrow, I hope you will listen to Sam Harris's presentation. He
is on the same bent-for-hell platform as I am, which is to say I'm happy to be
in his company.</a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">Its not their BELIEF that hurts people....its
what they DO about it. TWO completely different things. People can believe in a
God and have all kinds of "logical conclusions" and not all of them
are bad....you are just hyper focusing on those people who DO bad things in the
name of their God....even in spite of it, they still have the right to believe
it....not so cool for them to act on it the way they CHOOSE to....</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">Like I say, I realise this
is an immensely challenging subject and I am not a stranger at all to your
point of view. I was once a very believing person who was challenged and was
hell bent on proving non-believers wrong. I get it. I was raised in that
environment and stayed in it voluntarily until I was 35. I am no stranger to
scripture. Not at all. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Ok. Let's
go there. It is not their belief that hurts people, it's what they do about it.
OK. How does one divorce themselves from their beliefs, if their belief is god
will heal their dying child. What action does that parent take?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">the problem isn't with believing in good
things...its when anyone becomes such an extremist about anything that they
become intolerant and cruel. <b><i>(There's a veiled allegation here... I see it but I didn't rise to it, and this poster did not make the same suggestion to the other participants)</i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">I agree.</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">It is not extreme
to ask questions. It IS extreme to be a prayer-based fundamentalist and allow
your child to die.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">So why the hell are you attacking people on
my wall for simply BELIEVING in something good and better than themselves?</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">NO ONE
SAID THEY DID THAT<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">WTH? NOR did ANYONE say they believe and support
that<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">Who did I attack? Please
will you copy and paste what I said that was an attack? </span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"><b><i>(One of the reasons I'm editing
and posting this conversation is to read through it again to see if/where I
actually did attack a specific person. So far, nope)</i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">They said - and you have
said - people have the right to their beliefs.</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Who does
that apply to? Just christians? Just muslims? Who?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">Everyone! But a belief in something does not
mean someone has the ethic right to damage and destroy ourselves as a people
because of it. Ethics and religious beliefs are two different creatures</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">I absolutely agree with
that. Religious belief and morals have zero to do with each other.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">So I'll
ask you this again: Does it apply to everyone that they have the right to their
beliefs?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">Yeas
everyone has the right to their BELIEF. "So, if I have faith I will see a
pink unicorn this year, real, true faith, you say that is fine and normal
?"</span> <----very a="" amp="" attack="" b="" distatefully="" form="" insulting="" is="" of="" patronizing="" which=""><i><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"> (what??? How is my statement of belief in pink unicorns
an attack???)</span></i></----very></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<b><i><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><br /></span></i></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">JK, you've just said people
have the right to believe what they will, and then posted here my belief in
pink unicorns is NOT ok and to state it is somehow an attack.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">People of no ethical integrity have no right
to ACT on their beliefs <b><i>(um, yeah, they do. Just because I don't
agree with another person's ethics or beliefs, doesn't mean I get to bring the
hammer down on those beliefs. OH/ WAIT!! This is EXACTLY the point I've been
trying to make with this person. HOLY CONTRADICTION, BATMAN!)<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Because
you are being sarcastic and rude. I'm not saying you don't have a right to it. I'm
saying you are being an ass by throwing that in someone's face...just to
somehow prove your point.... </span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><b><i>(The poster is referring her to my belief in
pink unicorns and suggesting that my asking if I have the right to my beliefs
as per their "Live/Let live" statements). <o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><b><i><br /></i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">Ok. Everyone has the right
to their beliefs. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Some
muslim people really, truly, honestly believe they will see the kingdom of god
if they kill infidels. This is the foundation for the attacks in NYC.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Do those
people have a right to that belief?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">Why is my
belief "rude"?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">the way you present it is rude....not the
belief itself</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">JK. C'mon. Seriously?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">and hell yeah they have the right to believe
what they believe, its not my place or right to say they cant, it DOES NOT mean
they had any ethical right to act on it in the way they did. I don't believe
they should have DONE what they did. <b><i>(So they DON'T have the right to their
beliefs??? THEY BELIEVE THE ATTACKS WERE GOD'S WILL. How do they divorce
themselves from their beliefs in this instance? This poster is completely
missing the logical dilemma they have walked themselves into.)<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">yeah
seriously<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="color: #3b5998; font-weight: bold;">ME</span> B</span><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">ut they DO believe they were
doing their god's will.</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">If we say
everyone has the right to their beliefs, we cannot judge those acts by OUR
beliefs. Either your statement applies across the board or it doesn't<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">your entire tone when you write is full of
insult and disdain that someone could even possibly believe in a god despite
all your "evidence" against it....its arrogant, and honestly that's
what has put me off the most. What right do you have to tell someone that their
innocent belief in something that makes them strive to be a better person is
somehow bad. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><b><i>(At no point did I say any such thing. I believe this person is now spilling
something of their own)<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><b><i><br /></i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><b>M</b></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none;"><b>E</b></span> </span><span style="font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">I'm not telling anyone
anything, JK. I am ASKING QUESTIONS</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">sure you are....in a very aggressively
intolerant manner<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">I am asking you if you
really do believe everyone has the right to belief what they </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">JK</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">to which I have answered you, but not in a
way you like<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">ME </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">I'm sorry you are getting
aggression and intolerance. I'm having a really tough time understanding how
you mean for it to apply. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">We cannot
say everyone has the right to their beliefs but sanction them when they do what
they think is right based on those beliefs.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">JK </span></strong><span style="font-family: Maiandra GD;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I don't based on MY BELIEFS....I
base it off of an unrelated code of ethical conduct based upon the whole human
race finding a way to co-</span><span style="font-size: 15px;">exist</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> and thrive together....NOT based upon religion.</span></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt;">ME </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;">I KNOW you do. Which
is exactly what I meant when I said religion and morals have zero to do with
each other/.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 12pt;">ME</span> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">I'm not sure why you understand me as being
intolerant when I'm just asking questions. I'm trying to understand how it
works to say everyone has the right to their beliefs when some of those beliefs
are frankly horrifying.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">But what
do we do when someone really truly believes, based on their interpretation of
their holy book and the counsel of their religious leader, that it is right to
stone a woman to death for being the victim of a rape?</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #333333; font-family: 'Maiandra GD'; font-size: 11pt;">What do we
do then? They have the right to their beliefs and they really believe they are
doing the right thing - the moral thing - based on their dearly-held beliefs.
What do we do with that?</span></div>
<div style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin: 7.15pt 0cm 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">
<b><span style="color: windowtext; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">ME</span></b><strong><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;"> </span></strong><span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD"; font-size: 11pt;">And
to be clear, we're not talking about you here. The subject is
"everyone," and yes, you're included but this is not specifically
about you or me.</span></div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-91694493051013513462013-12-20T13:41:00.002-07:002024-03-15T13:33:36.377-06:00That product is BOGUS!<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;"><b><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><p style="text-align: left;"><b style="background-color: transparent;"><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">This is the reprint of
a conversation between me and a christian pastor who found one of my tweets,
and began a conversation with something to do with sitting across from me and
hearing my heart (AKA christian-speak for "tell you how wrong you
are.")</span></b></p></span></b></div>
<b style="background-color: #eeeeee;"><div style="text-align: justify;"><b style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><span>I had hoped to enter into a conversation and discussion with this person, as
they have a bit of a profile out there in public. I assumed this person
actually has a basis in their theology but that is not the case. Despite the
person admitting they're not a scholar, they're making a pretty fine living
from it... .</span></b></div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br /></span></div>
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><div style="text-align: justify;">
<b><span>Where it comes to this religious stuff, I know I am a pugilist but that's no
reason for the other party to not engage, particularly in this case, as the
person in question makes their living by selling this "product" and
related books and tapes and other purchaseables. I say a person should really
know their product before selling it and, if that product proves to be faulty -
or in this case, not real - one should cease to sell it. It is unethical to
sell a product when one knows the product is not as advertised.... That said, I
can't conclude from this exchange the other party actually understands their
product is not real. I can conclude, however, the person did not want to even
contemplate that possibility. </span></b></div>
</span></b><br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">ME: </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">I
was not surprised when you invited me to connect and then immediately
disengaged when you were asked difficult-to-answer questions in a public
forum.<br />
<br />
I realise religion is big business where you are (redacted to protect this
person's privacy) and by extension, although you did say you don't have all the
answers, your actually not having the answers - and not having them in a public
forum - is going to damage your business, which looks as though it is quite
lucrative, from your website.<br />
<br />
So. I will engage with you but here's what you should know first. I am cousin
to five ministers in this generation, daughter of lay preachers, granddaughter,
great-granddaughter, great-great-granddaughter, great-great-great-<wbr></wbr>granddaughter
- and back five more generations to known, published preachers in my country, <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place> and yours.<br />
<br />
I grew up in an evangelical church, sang in the choir, preached as a lay person
and attended that church almost every day of my life - because I also attended
school there - until I was 14. My mother a sunday-school teacher and my father
a deacon and son of a very well-known, well-travelled, well-respected minister.<br />
<br />
My first cousin was for some 20 years, the head of the largest christian
organisation in my country and was incredibly distinguished in the field generally, and very respected.<br />
<br />
So, I am not an idiot, not uneducated, and previously immersed. I have
graduated five times from university, write a regular satirical blog and have
been published often over the last 25 years.<br />
<br />
I count among my close friends one of the escaped members of the Westboro
Baptist (Phelps) family, and John Loftus. I am acquainted with Michael Shermer, Peter Boghossian, and the wonderful (now deceased) James Randi.<br />
<br />
When I was still immersed in the christian culture, a challenge was put to me
by an atheist. In order to "prove said person wrong," I embarked on a
serious campaign of research. Seven years on and many, many hours and much
writing later, the short form is this: the bible is THE best means of finding
atheism. Combined with extra-biblical research, archives, archaeology, history,
philosophy, christianity stands only as a political scheme that has, at its
base, an angry, stupid, highly murderous, jealous deity with 2.5 million
murders to its credit.<br />
<br />
So. You are more than welcome to "debate" with me. I have two
requests: </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">1. You must establish the validity of your god via evidence - and the bible is
not evidence, in that the source cannot be used to validate the source, any
more than the Harry Potter series can be used to prove the existence of the
characters of that story. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<br />
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">1a.
That evidence cannot in any way also support any of the other 4000+ gods
imagined by humans, nor can it substantiate other invisible beings, pink
unicorns, the flying spaghetti monster, Allah, Thor or Zeus. You must show
evidence that can ONLY substantiate YOUR particular god; otherwise, we will not
have platform from which to proceed.<br />
<br />
2. You will please do me the favour of listening to <a href="http://youtu.be/aDlaeo-kxjA" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Sam Harris's wonderful book, Letter to a Christian Nation</a>, a link to which I have attached here, prior
to engaging.<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDlaeo-kxjA" target="_blank"><span style="color: #1155cc;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr></wbr>v=aDlaeo-kxjA</span></a><br />
<br />
I do not expect you to respond. However, if you do, please know I will
challenge and refute everything you propose as proof and I will back up my
challenges and refutations with links, support, logic, evidence and challenge.
I will not accept opinion, no matter how strident, as evidence of anything, nor
will I accept belief, no matter how fervent; the crazy guy down my street
believes beyond any possible doubt he is jesus... belief is not evidence of
anything beyond the believer being willing to ignore reality.<br />
<br />
I the meantime, I am very curious to know ...(redacted to protect the other
party's privacy)... whether when you speak publicly, you call your audience to
prayer, which ALSO contravenes the biblical expectation of private prayer,
rather than emulating heathens, who pray loudly and publicly.<br /><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Pastor</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">: Thanks for connecting; however, I'm confused as to the reason for
connecting. It certainly sounds like you have settled into what you believe (or
don’t believe). I certainly don’t mind having a conversation, but I would like
to do so with mutual respect. We don’t have to bash each other or judge each
other in the process. I feel as if you have accused me of many things without
knowing me </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;">(<i>I
haven't accused this person of anything at all. I set out the terms for the
discussion and I asked a few questions related to certain biblical expectations</i></span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">)</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">, and if the intent of engaging with me is to bash or slander me (</span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;">SLANDER???</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">)</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">, I respectfully decline. I have no intention of doing that to you
regardless of differences in beliefs we have. My goal is not to debate. I
simply wanted to extend a willingness to chat, share, and grow.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">My schedule is extremely full the next
couple days, so please don’t get frustrated if I don’t respond right away for
the next couple days or assume it’s because I am ignoring you. But also know
that if we cannot continue a conversation with respect and a willingness to
agree to disagree, I’m not what you expect the purpose of conversing will be.
If you’d like to let me know the specific goals of interacting with me, please
do. (</span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;">um,
that's what I just did, above</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">).</span></i><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Thank you.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">ME: </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">Connecting because you
asked me to, via Twitter. YOU asked me to forward you an email so we could
discuss in private.<br />
<br />
I have not "bashed" you. I just re-read very carefully my message
above. I have questioned the beliefs you outline on your website, and yes, I
have noted religion is big business in (your country). That is a general
observation, not a criticism of you personally. I am very, very interested in
your answers to the questions I've put to you. Those questions are about the
religion you ascribe to, NOT about you personally. I do not know you and I do
not know who you are beyond what I see on your website; therefore I have no
reason to respect or disrespect you.<br />
<br />
The purpose of these questions is clarification. Christians are called to win
hearts for christ. My experience as a life-long christian was to rebuff these
hard questions. My experience now, as an educated atheist, is to be on the
receiving end of being rebuffed for asking hard questions and to be regularly
subjected to the fury of christians who cannot answer these questions.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
I am always on the lookout for christians who will answer these hard questions
without apologetics and "you just have to have faith." Several of the
were-christians I know - myself included - dared to go looking for the answers
to these hard questions. The result is the difficult but very relieving
understanding god is an illogical concept. However, as with all the atheists I
know, the second there is evidence for any god, evidence being the key
ingredient, we will all change our 'spots.'<br />
<br />
As I noted on Twitter, I do not expect you to engage, despite your having
requested my email address. However, if you are actually willing, I am very,
very interested in your answers.<br />
<br />
As I noted above, the key to this discussion is substantiation: if we are going
to discuss "god" we must establish which god we're speaking of, what
evidence exists for that god and how that evidence does not also substantiate
other gods proposed by humans. We cannot logically assume the existence of such
a being and then make the story fit.<br />
<br />
Also, just to qualify your comment that I have settled into what I believe or
don't believe, to make a very important distinction: belief exists regardless
of the facts and logic showing that belief to be implausible or impossible.
KNOWLEDGE, however, depends on logic and fact; as such, it isn't a case of
belief or not. It is a case of there being no evidence. If there were evidence
for any god or gods, there would still not be belief; there would be
KNOW.<br />
<br />
If you wish not to engage in this conversation, which you requested be
initiated, I understand. I hope very much you will, regardless, take advantage
of Sam Harris's wonderful book, the link to the audio version being included
above. If you will commit two hours of your time, I'm sure you will be
enlightened as to the perspective of those of us who, by asking the hard
questions, have abandoned a 2000 year-old mythology. I hope you will also take
some time to read the stories of those who have left, or are in the process of
leaving the clergy via <a href="http://www.clergyproject.org/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #1155cc;">http://www.clergyproject.<wbr></wbr>org/</span></a> and
also that you will read the stories of lay people at <a href="http://www.ex-christian.net/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #1155cc;">http://www.ex-christian.net</span></a><wbr></wbr>.
<br />
<br />
I do understand your livelihood depends on your continuing to be an advocate
for your religion, and I do understand questioning the foundations of that
religion may not be in the best interests of continuing in that employment and
with the profile you seem to have. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: rgb(241, 241, 241); mso-line-height-alt: 4.3pt;">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.7pt;height:.7pt'>
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif"
o:href="https://mail.google.com/mail/images/cleardot.gif"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img aria-label=" " border="0" class="ajT" height="1" jid="fatconspiracist@gmail.com" src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif" v:shapes="_x0000_i1026" width="1" /><!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Pastor:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Oh, I didn’t think you were critical in
your email. Just a bit with some of the Tweets. But I understand the
defensiveness(</span><b><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;">???</span></i></b><b><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">)</span></i></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">. When we’re solid and confident
in our beliefs, of course, we’re passionate about it…regardless of what those
beliefs are. <i>(</i></span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;">Just to note, this
person has totally ignored my defining beliefs and knowledge... so I already
know they're either not reading or ignoring that distinction) <br />
</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><br />
I respect you for being firm in your beliefs even if I don’t agree with you. I
don’t think it’s my job to persuade you otherwise. Yes, Christians are to be
the salt and light of the world, but we’re often not. We’re often filled with
judgment (sic) and hypocrisy. I try very hard to live an authentic life. I don’t want
to be a Pharisee, focusing so much on the religion of Christianity that I
ignore the relationship with Christ.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I
am not a scholar, yet I also don’t rebuff the hard questions (<i>very interesting statement given this person
did not address even one question I asked)<br />
<br />
</i></span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"> I’ve
asked a lot of questions along the way, and I’ve wrestled with many of them. I
didn’t grow up as a Christian. But as I wrestled the moralism and absolutes, I
went on a quest to seek out truth. But I also respect that everyone has an
individual journey. It sounds like you’ve been hurt by a lot of people who were
connected to Christianity throughout your life and for that, I’m sorry. Even
though I didn’t do anything personally and I don’t know the details, I just
think it stinks when the very people who are supposed to authentically represent
the veracity, love, and grace of compassion of God fail to do so. <b><i>(Oh
brother... )</i></b>But I’m sure there have been some moments and situations in
which I’ve done the same. We all have hypocrisy in our lives. It’s just whether
or not we’re willing to see it.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I don’t have time to watch the videos
right now, and I can’t even promise I will do so soon, but I appreciate you sharing
your favorite resources <b><i>(AKA, nope, not gonna do it). <br />
<br />
</i></b>Also, I feel as if I need to briefly address the accusation about
religion being big business with the connection to my website. It is not a
business to me. It is a ministry. What I do is to pour into others. It doesn’t
financially support me. Yes, there is money involved, but just because there is
an exchange of money doesn’t mean something is lucrative and it doesn’t mean
the goal is even to be lucrative. I actually think we probably have a similar
approach in our “ministry”: sharing our beliefs and encouraging others to
consider the same. Anyone can make money around their beliefs, but that’s not
my goal. It doesn’t seem to be yours as well. I suppose that’s something we
have in common! <b><i>(I'm not going to post the web link here but I suspect "doesn't
financially support me" might not be exactly the truth). </i></b></span><b><i><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">ME:
</span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">Let
me make this clear again: I do not have "beliefs." I HAD beliefs,
which I challenged, and which did not stand to scrutiny.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
I'm sorry you understand direct questions as "defensiveness."
Christians who engage on Twitter quite regularly ascribe all sorts of negative
things to blunt questions, "Tell me what you mean by that?" or
"what is your evidence?" is not defensiveness. "How dare you ask
that?" is. <br />
<br />
If you're a bible-believing christian, then yes, it is your "job" to
persuade me. Christians are specifically called by 'god' to do so.<br />
<br />
Also to be absolutely clear, I do not have a "ministry." I have
questions, but no question can be considered the dogma of any religion or
creed. To whit: atheism is a religion like "off" is a TV
channel. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
As I mentioned earlier, as I do not know you and do not know whether I have
anything in common with you, beyond being human. However, and this will be
statement of the reason I have engaged with you: <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">First,
you asked me to engage, via Twitter. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">Secondly,
and more importantly, atheists are much under-represented.... (redacted to
protect this person's privacy)<br />
<br />
My goal here is to lead you through some difficult questions and by doing so,
bring you to an understanding of how really impossible religion is and, full
disclosure, by shedding light on the lie of religions, perhaps bring a
passionate person out of the mire of religion into an environment where they
can actually do some good. I have no beliefs to offer you in exchange for those
you have at present. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">The
link to Sam Harris's book is not a video. It is a "book on tape"
which you can easily listen to while you're driving.<br />
<br />
The Clergy Project and Ex-Christian.net should absolutely be on your browsing
list. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">So.
Shall we?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">QUESTION:
Do you understand "spirits" or "angels" or "god"
to have DNA or genes? I will explain this question later, but I'm interested in
your answer. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Re your "relationship" with 'Christ" (which is a title, not a
name), by what means do you substantiate the CURRENT existence of this
figure? <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Given the 40 or so first-century historians who were alive, on site and
actively writing at the alleged time of this character, how do you explain not
a single one mentioned that character, even in passing?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Given the four men who are most often cited as substantiating
"jesus," were not eyewitnesses and not alive at the alleged time of that
character, and given Josephus has been outed as a fraud, what basis do you have
for the existence of that character? The bible cannot be used as a means of
substantiating itself, any more than the Harry Potter series substantiates the
existence of that story's characters. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">Josephus
is alleged to have said something to the effect of "I heard a thing about
this guy," which cannot be considered "eyewitness" evidence:
further to that, as Josephus was an historian who wrote the history of Jewish
faith, it is very unlikely he would have substantiated a person that would have
completely altered the bedrock of Judaism. Given those realities, what
corroborated evidence is there for the character "jesus" ever having
lived.<br />
<br />
How do you explain the near identical MO of the Egyptian 'god' Horus to the
christian god "jesus"? <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
I am very interested in your comment, "... grace of compassion of
god,..." in light of these facts:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
God's laws in Leviticus and Exodus do NOT qualify as "compassionate."
If they did and if they are right, then most christians are actively defying
'god.' These laws still being relevant and current is substantiated by christ
in Matthew 5: 18-19.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
God's direction, reiterated by the character "Jesus" encourage
slavery and reiterated it in the NT in Luke and Timothy; to oppose slavery
contradicts the OT and NT directions. Incidentally, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lincoln</st1:place></st1:city> said, "The bible is not my book
and christianity not my concern."<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
"Jesus" is very hostile to women, his mother included.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
God's direction to women, that they be silent, covered, and subjected to the
will of the men around them, is not compassionate and renders women very much
second class, disposable and worse.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">The
god of the christian bible is responsible for 2.5 million
murders/deaths/genocidal killings including various massacres of women and
children. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">This
god also commands virgin women be taken as spoils of war: please discuss
"compassion" in that context.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
This god commands the slaughter of first born sons, and many times in biblical
stories commands the deaths of all, women and children included. Discuss
compassion in this context.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
The god of the bible is alleged to have created beings, to have infused them with
life, to know the hour of their birth and death, to have a plan for them and to
know what they're thinking. This all-knowing god is alleged to have consciously
put "temptations" in Adam's way, with the help of a talking snake (?)
and to have punished Adam for doing exactly what this all-knowing god knew he
would do. Discuss "compassion" as it relates to punishing someone for
doing something you cause them to do, and which you already know they will do.
I understand this same technique was used quite often during the Holocaust...<br />
<br />
Also, as it relates to "Adam" and "Eve," if you take
Genesis at its word, you immediately have a problem. We have two people on the
entire planet either this is true or the entire bible is suspect. This singular
couple has two sons, one of whom kills the other. We now have one woman and two
men. If you are a literalist, Eve's future children and indeed Cain's wife, are
the result of incest, as are, necessarily, many, many generations of people
thereafter. If your are NOT a literalist, you have a problem of interpretation
or of questioning your "all-knowing, omniscient" god.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
I understand a great many evangelical christians believe men actually have
fewer ribs than women. This is patently, demonstrably false, but, if the
genesis story were to be true, fewer male ribs would necessarily have to be the
case.<br />
<br />
Later, we have this all-knowing god having yet another temper tantrum, and
drowning "all his creations" with the exception of a 600 year-old
man, his also-ancient wife and ancient sons. If you believe that story, you
must then believe that this ancient couple and their sons, again by incest of a
geriatric brand, be the source of all humans alive today. If you take the
definition of six cubits being as high as a mountain, you have an 18 mile-long
arc, filled with animals that must eat and evacuate regularly, all overseen by
a crew of beyond-old people, who somehow managed to find polar bears and
iguanas, to somehow manage to feed all the worlds "kinds" their
specialised diets and also managed to feed the "Kinds" of carnivores
for a year and somehow do that on such a massive vessel. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">With
respect to your suggestion I am atheist because I've been hurt, I confirm I
have NEVER been hurt by anyone in my church or in my life, where it concerns
religion. This "you've been hurt" thing is something christians say
all the time, but it stems only from their inability to understand how and why
someone rejects mythology. It is irksome and says a lot about the person
saying/writing it but nothing at all about the person to whom it is directed.<br />
<br />
I grew up in the church - literally in the building, which my dad literally
built; my friends where there, my family was there and my life was there until
I was 29. I fell in love for the first time there and later I married a member
of my church. I have frankly happy memories of my church and growing up in that
environment. I know many of those I grew up with have ALSO confronted these
hard questions and have come to the same place as I have: wonderful environment
based on mythology.<br />
<br />
Many atheists who grew up in religion are angry - in the sense of being greatly
frustrated - at the realisation we have quite literally been lied to. Yes, many
people have been very hurt in their churches. Many have been abused in too many
ways to count; many have been rejected, subjugated, tortured, marginalised and
mostly, enslaved by a false paradigm. None of that, however, applies to me. I
got here by the common process of desiring to prove an atheist wrong, which
meant I had to answer these hard questions, which lead me to understanding
religions - all of them - being mythologies humans create to explain things
they do not understand. But, no matter how much, deeply, strongly, convincingly
one believes something, that still does not make it real. I KNOW I live on a
planet because it has been observed. I KNOW my planet is in a galaxy, because
that has been observed. I KNOW there are some 400 galaxies visible to the human
eye, because those can be observed. I KNOW the universe is large beyond
comprehension because it has been measured. I KNOW there is utterly no evidence
for any god, because humans have been attempting to substantiate such beings
since humans were conscious.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Pastor:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I am going to have to extend the
invitation to agree to disagree. To say atheism is not a set a beliefs is
contradictory. (<b><i>I have no beliefs nor does atheism have beliefs. Atheism simply states
there is no evidence for god(s). Period. That's it). <o:p></o:p></i></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">None of us operates in a vacuum. We
might put different labels on things, but what we state as an absolute, such as
having no questions, following no gods, etc., is a contradiction in reason. Of
course, I’m not saying everything has to be of reason, explainable, empirical,
but I also think we cannot live by double standards, demanding evidence for
what one person believes but claiming what we believe to be fact but not a set
of beliefs. Even if we follow the “facts” of science (which, by the way, I do
in many facets, but I believe we’re limited in our knowledge through science
simply because of our lack of knowledge and understanding, not because I
believe everything about science to be false), we “believe” science. If you
believe you are operating on an “off” channel of tv (of sorts), that is a set
of beliefs that form your assumptions and responses to the world around you.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">You prompted me to smile about my
engagement with you on Twitter. As I recall, you were the first to engage. I
simply requested we be able to take the conversation, if it was going to get in
depth, to a venue by which we could create longer sentences. It’s so difficult
to have respectful, well thought through discussions of beliefs even face to
face let alone when trapped by a limit of characters. I wasn’t avoiding
anything by inviting you into another format. I simply wanted to extend the
invitation to chat.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">ME: </span></b><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">Ok. Let's play:<br />
Specifically, what are the "beliefs" held by atheists?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Religion: RESISTS any and all challenges to its deeply held dogma<br />
Science: SEEKS to disprove itself in order to better its understanding<br />
<br />
We do NOT "believe" science. We can rely on established scientific
theories for two reasons, the main being the underpinnings of all scientific
theory is FACTS - observable and testable FACTS; secondly, we can rely on
scientific facts and theories because science seeks to disprove those. Science
may make a statement - a hypothesis - which it then seeks to test. By testing
the hypothesis, certain facts emerge, which either make for the reason to
continue testing or make for a reason to discard the hypothesis or alter it.
Religions are completely opposite of this: It makes a statement and then
refuses every possible attempt at fact checking, usually with the ridiculous,
circular statement, "you just have to have faith."<br />
<br />
I'm sorry but please explain to me the idea that "off" is a
belief.<br />
<br />
This is a key distinction - the difference between belief and knowledge - and a
distinction believers very much insist on obscuring. That is an
intellectually-dishonest approach. I hope you will abandon it.<br />
<br />
I notice that you have not responded at all to any of the questions I posted in
my last message. This avoidance is VERY common with christians - and with
religious people in general.<br />
<br />
I cannot take you seriously in the least if you will not engage. Rhetoric is
for politicians and for those who have either something to hide or who do not
actually have the answers.<br />
<br />
If you are unable to answer the questions put to you, then please be honest and
say so.<br />
<br />
If you do not wish to explore and answer those questions, then please also be
honest and say so.<br />
<br />
I have chosen to engage with you for the reasons stated above. If you are not
willing to have an honest conversation that includes your participation -
meaning answering the questions put to you, then please say this also, and I
will end this communication. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">I
would like to add I do not agree to disagree.<br />
<br />
We have not established any facts upon which we might agree or disagree. You
have made some statements which contain errors, one being this: "... we
state as an absolute, such as having no questions,..". At NO point did I
say, and indeed my list of questions to you proves I did not say, I have no
questions.<br />
<br />
I will take it your "agree to disagree" means you would rather not
even consider the questions I put to you. If this is the case, then say
so.<br />
<br />
If it is the case, may I say how very dishonest it is for someone to be
promoting a product (or paradigm/dogma, in your case) which they have refused
to understand and explore. How do you present yourself as a trustworthy
advocate for your particular brand of religion if you admit to not being a
scholar and cleave to not ever being one by means of refusing to research the
product you promote?<br />
<br />
I would like very much one answer from you: I assume - and please tell me if
this is an incorrect assumption - you are a christian and you believe in the
parts of the bible you have read and are familiar with, and I'll also assume
you believe christianity and the christian god to be the one true religion.
<br />
<br />
IF you had been born in an islamic country, would you still be christian? </span><span style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Then don't talk me seriously. Its okay.
But please understand that many of the same judgments of assumptions and
illogical you are making of me and throwing all Christians says something about
yourself as well. You are ask in me to have an open mind. When you are ready to
do the same, feel free to reconnect. Big please don't assume you know
everything about me and my beliefs.<br />
<br />
</span><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;">ME</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">I don't assume
anything, which is why I've asked you a bunch of questions; I truly want to
know what you think.<br />
<br />
Let me state this very clearly. I know NOTHING about you beyond what you have
posted on your website. However, as you HAVE posted substantial information on
your website, I am not assuming anything about what you believe, because you've
made it clear and have stated your beliefs there.<br />
<br />
I know nothing at all about you personally, again beyond what you've posted on
your website.<br />
<br />
I am VERY interested in your answers to the various questions I've posted here.
I cannot say this with enough emphasis: I really, really want to know what your
responses are.<br />
<br />
What you just did with "Then don't take me seriously," and "...
many (which?) judgements of assumptions and illogical you are making of me
and throwing all Christians says something about yourself as well," is
called 'moving the goal posts,' which means, rather than dealing with the
questions at hand, you've used a distracting technique.<br />
<br />
I will take it you wrote that very quickly - as you did with "You are ask
in me to have an open mind," or you're writing on a small
keyboard...<br />
<br />
Pastor, I am not trying to goad you. I have made it very clear I have engaged
because you requested we connect privately - and yes, you did that in response
to my tweets. I have now connected privately, and I have made my reasons for
doing that very clear. I am very, deeply curious to know your responses to the
questions I've asked you. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM" target="_blank"><span style="color: #1155cc;">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr></wbr>v=-i3mX0YRrjM</span></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> Thisis Sam Harris's excellent discussion of the realities of christianity. It is 10minutes. I know you will refuse this, and I know why, and that refusal saysEVERYTHING about your relationship with your religion: you KNOW in yourrational brain it does not and cannot make sense. </a><br />
<br />
I only know this about you: you are completely unwilling to examine your
beliefs.<br />
<br />
This is equal to a salesperson who either knows nothing at all about their
product, or knows their product is faulty - or on this case - non-existent -
but sells it anyway. Such behaviour is fraudulent and dishonest, Pastor.<br />
<br />
You cannot have credibility and you are not honest about your product, if you
refuse so categorically to KNOW it.<br />
<br />
I hope you will find honesty in your heart. It makes me very sad to know yet
another smart person is hostage to a violent, invisible "god" and
promotes a religion founded on torture and death. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: rgb(241, 241, 241); mso-line-height-alt: 4.3pt;">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape
id="_x0000_i1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:.7pt;height:.7pt'>
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif"
o:href="https://mail.google.com/mail/images/cleardot.gif"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><img border="0" class="ajT" height="1" src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.gif" style="-webkit-box-shadow: none; background-image: -webkit-linear-gradient(top, rgb(245, 245, 245), rgb(241, 241, 241)); border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 2px; border-radius: 0px 2px 2px 0px; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 2px; border: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.098); box-shadow: none; cursor: default; display: inline-block; min-width: 21px; outline: 0px; z-index: 1 id=":pz";" tabindex="0" v:shapes="_x0000_i1027" width="1" /><!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><a aria-label="Sam Harris - Morality and the Christian God" data-tooltip-align="t,c" data-tooltip-class="r3OcPd" data-tooltip="Sam Harris - Morality and the Christian God" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM" id=":sp" style="cursor: pointer; display: inline-block; outline: none; overflow: hidden; z-index: 0;" target="_blank"><span style="float: left;"><span style="color: #1f497d;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: black; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><span id=":st" style="-webkit-user-select: none; user-select: none;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM" target="_blank">Sam Harris - Morality and the Christian God</a></span></span></span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><br />
Please don't judge. You know very little about me. I cannot respond now. It's
not about the accusations you make. I need to focus on significant people in my
life who are in crisis. Perhaps we can resume at a later date.<br />
<br />
And my hope for you is the same...find honesty (and compassion) in your heart.
You know not what or who you judge. You are making many generalizations and
seem full of hate. I am sorry people have hurt you but you need not take it out
on strangers. But when you do, it merely highlights the need for absolute love.
I hope you will seek and find it someday.<br />
<br />
</span><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;">ME:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">Just wanted to pass
this on: it is excerpted from an excellent book by <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_aut?_encoding=UTF8&index=books&field-author=Peter%20Boghossian" target="_blank"><span style="color: #004b91; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Peter Boghossian</span></a></span><span style="font-family: Arial;">.</span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-family: Arial;">I
have NOT been hurt and I have made this clear several times in my posts
here.<br />
<br />
I am not "taking it out" on strangers. You are a public figure and
your site makes it clear what your philosophy is and what your goals are. It is
dishonest to have a very public presence and engage in public speaking tours
and to promote yourself as an expert, but to refuse to entertain questions
about the philosophy you're promoting. People who are sure of their subject
actively seek out questions and interactions. You have chosen to ignore
questions and that implies you either don't have the answers, or don't like
whatever you're coming up with.<br />
<br />
I am not judging anyone. I have asked questions and I have made an observation.
As I also made very clear at the outset, my goal here is to appeal to the
logical mind of someone who is obviously smart. That is the only judgement I've
made about YOU personally. Otherwise, I do know what your platform and belief
system is and I do know what I am commenting on, because I have read every
section of your website and your recent posts. If you're referring to the material
on your website, yes, I am "judging" it to be based on supposition
not fact in the same way Hinduism or Islam or Judaism, or Jainism, or
Zoroastrianism are, or as are any of the old Roman or Greek or Viking
religions: none are based in anything that is demonstrably real. You have not
only not given any reason or evidence why your choice of god is any more
substantiated than any of the gods related to those religions, so we're still
at square one.<br />
<br />
The bottom line is still this, Pastor; you are not, in my opinion, acting
honestly. You have not answered a single question I've posted here - and I will
say it looks as though you're actively-avoiding, which is
very disappointing.<br />
<br />
I'm sorry to hear there are people in crisis in your personal circles. I wonder,
however, why you, as such a believing person and such a faithful person, feel
the need to do anything with respect to those people, when the statements on
your website are very, very clear: you believe 'god' has specific plans, will
take care of these people and that you need not worry. It seems a bit of a
contradiction.<br />
<br />
So here's what is important on that count: you are concerned and feel the need
to act, to engage, and to care for these people, and that belies your belief
that 'god' will act. If you REALLY believed what you say, you would have no
concerns at all with respect to those people.<br />
<br />
The fact christians (and other religiously-minded people) spend time worrying,
praying, supplicating 'god' flies quite in the face of what they SAY they
believe. The simple fact of praying proves people do not believe god is acting
in their best interests. If god has a plan, then it has a plan and no amount of
prayer is necessary or effective, unless one is suggesting their perfect god
has made an imperfect plan or decision.<br />
<br />
I hold out much hope you will listen to the 10 minute speech by Sam Harris, to
which I posted a link in an earlier message today. I also hold out much hope
you will consider the many, many evangelicals, who have left religion - people
like John Loftus, who was a dedicated, fire-brimstone, pulpit-bashing preacher
for some 12 years - following on an excellent theological education - and who
is now at the forefront of informed writers on the subject of religions and
particularly on christianity. I hope you will have the courage - because I
KNOW, personally, the courage it takes to really KNOW what one believes - to
explore the vast amount of excellent research and writing there is on the
subject of christianity.<br />
<br />
Finally, if you're saying I'm angry, making generalisations (which? Please
specify and I will correct those, if I have), and am full of hate, then you are
judging me, without knowing anything about me beyond what I've told you here.
You have presumed I am not loved and that I don't feel love, when you cannot
know that - and I will confirm that is very, very far from my reality.</span><span style="font-family: Arial;"><br />
<br />
You have also made a fatal error here: you have ignored my personal past, which
I've mentioned was 35 years as a believer in an evangelical church, and member
of a family whose evangelical and preaching roots stretch back some 210 years.
You are implying I am uninformed, when you must know that is not and cannot be
the case.<br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--><span style="color: #222222;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Pastor:
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #1f497d; font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I praise God, claim the name and Truth
of Jesus, and pray for you in the power of His name.</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"> </span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;">(<b><i>this would be this person's
talisman - it's the digital form of holding up a cross and uttering "get
thee hence, satan")</i></b><br />
<br />
<b><i>This
is where this person checked out and where it became perfectly clear they were
not going to compromise themselves by attempting to answer any question I put
to them. Disappointing but no surprise. </i></b><br />
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br />
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><br />
<b>ME: </b>Fine. Prayer is futile in any
case, and don't you think it is a presumption that your god doesn't know what
he's doing when he makes plans for people, me included? It's a bit insulting to
presume to change the mind of your creator, isn't it, if you've already stated
god is all seeing, all knowing and omniscient?<br />
<br />
As for Christ., what's your evidence the person you're praying to is real,
given the alleged death and subsequent disappearance into the sky and given
every account of that person is NOT eyewitness and given there is no
extra-biblical support that person ever existed, and given the four gospels,
all written 60 - 150 years after this person is alleged to have lived do not
agree on any account? And all that is in addition to your character's striking
resemblance to some 20 others, also not real and older by a span of 8000
years.<br />
<br />
Also, as you haven't answered this yet, do spirits and angels have DNA and/or
genes?<br />
<br />
<b>ME:</b> Just want to pass on this
excellent speech by David Silverman:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<h5 style="line-height: 12.85pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm; max-width: 480px; vertical-align: middle;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">at <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Oxford</st1:place></st1:city>...<o:p></o:p></span></h5>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt; margin-bottom: 12pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Ladies and gentlemen good evening.<br />
<br />
I would like to use my time to expand on what Michael mentioned about the
knowledge and morality of religion. All believers are victims, because they’ve
been brainwashed into thinking that everything we know is wrong, and that
ancient myths are actually true. But religion also affects society at large,
making it a factor for ignorance and immoral behavior for believer and atheist
alike. The house has asserted that religion harms society, and this statement
cannot be overstated or emphasized enough.<br />
<br />
Case in point, consider some simple observable truths about religion:<br />
<br />
Religion lies, taking credit for doing things it did not do. thanks to
religion, knowledge isn't learned or guessed, it is "given by god".<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">Accomplishments aren't made because people did
great things, but because of the religion to which they adhere. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">People do good things, not because they are
good, but because they are religious. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">In the end, religion does nothing but take the
credit for the accomplishments of people or society, in order to legitimize
itself in the eyes of the flock.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Religion was created with yesterday’s knowledge, and in true form, religion
took the credit for that knowledge, calling it divine. The problem is that back
then we as a society knew much less than we know today. Indeed, religion was
invented because there were so many unanswered questions and religion answered
those questions with legends, tall tales, and sometimes, outright lies. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">Languages were formed at the Tower of babel.
Childbirth was painful because a woman listened to a talking snake, and of
course, the entire universe was created just for us, but an invisible man in
the sky. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Religion was also made with yesterday’s morality, for which religion once again
took the credit. This is good, because god says so. Again, Times were different
back when religions were invented. Slavery was common and accepted, and rape
was a fact of life. So the morality that was written into the texts reflects
those ancient ethics. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">This is why there are no commandments
prohibiting slavery or rape. There is no womens equality in the Bible because
women weren't equal back then, and lets not even begin to discuss the dreaded
gays and atheists. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;"><br />
But then religion doubles-down, taking it’s wrong knowledge and wrong morality
and refusing to grow with society. Herein lies the biggest problem. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">Religion places an anchor in yesterday, and
holds its believers to that mentality. Since religion asserts its teachings to
be correct and perfect, it is loathe to admit it can be wrong about anything,
because if it is wrong about the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on">Tower</st1:placetype>
of <st1:placename w:st="on">Babel</st1:placename></st1:place> or flying
horses, it can be wrong about other things as well, and religion surely doesn’t
want anyone doubting it.<br />
<br />
God-given perfect morality is tough to amend, its hard to say god changed his
mind. So as we learn as a society, religion resists, attacking science and
moral progress while supporting yesterday's knowledge and morality. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">Science becomes anti religion. Tolerance and
equality, and religious diversity in general, become attacks against God. We as
a society are trying to move beyond yesterday’s prejudice, but since religion
calls yesterday's prejudice perfect, and cant admit its wrong, religion is a
worldwide force for promoting yesterdays prejudice. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;"><br />
But religion doesn’t stop at adherents, because it cannot grow its influence if
outsiders know how wrong it is, so it uses its money and power to squelch
anything that proves it wrong. Religious myths need “equal time” in the science
class, so other people's children can be taught that "god did it" is
as valid as real science. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;">Laws are passed prohibiting anti-religious
expression, making blasphemy illegal, and those championing equalizing religion
with everyone else are labeled as anti-god. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;"><br />
Ladies and gentlemen there is an undeniable result, and much to my opponent's
chagrin, it is quantifiable and provable. Greg Paul, writing for the Journal of
religion and society, performed quantitative research which showed, <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Arial;"><br />
"in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy
low rates of societal dysfunction." A separate statistic called the "<b>Successful
Societies Scale</b>" shows a significant correlation between a country's
religiosity and lack of success as a nation. The HDI Index, which measures the
quality of life, shows a strong negative correlation between the religiosity of
a society and the happiness and well being of its people. All neutral, all
statistically significant, all supporting today's motion.<br />
<br />
And there is more, ladies and gentlemen, indeed study after study show that
societal religiosity positively correlates to poor social development and lower
quality of life, as well as greater income inequality, increased child
mortality, and overall unhappiness. Religion ignores these results, literally
pretending the proof isn't there, just so it can save it's supposedly perfect
face.<br />
<br />
Religion isn't just wrong, it's pro stagnation, and we as a society need to
recognize it as such. Religion takes credit for yesterday's knowledge, and then
refuses to learn. Religion takes credit for yesterday's morality and refuses to
grow. And then, To protect itself from being forced to admit it is wrong, it
attacks science and progress on the widest possible scale. As a result,
religion holds back whole societies, and lowers standards of living for
everyone, all so it doesn't have to admit its wrong, like our opponents are
tonight.<br />
<br />
This question is solved, but religion keeps denying its errors, deflecting its
criticism, and demonizing its opponents. But if I may paraphrase John Cleese,
religion's benefit to society is an ex-parrot - dead, and as such I urge you to
vote for tonight's motion. Thank you.<br />
<br /></span><span style="color: #222222; font-family: Arial;"><b>And finally, full disclosure: I advised
this person I would be posting the conversation and would not be identifying
them in any way, so don't ask me to.<br />
<br />
ME:</b>I just wanted to let you know I am going to publish this conversation
but that I will not identify you in any way, including gender or country or
business.<br />
<br />
My goal with publishing the conversation is to show how religious people
routinely ignore questions they should have answers for and, instead, dive for
cover under "prayer" and various other avoidance devices.<br />
<br />
It is not my intention to make any comment on you personally; only on the
profession generally and how dishonest it is.<br />
<br />
Also, full disclosure, I do hope to have provoked this person to resume the
conversation. I'm currently reading a book by Peter Boghassian, <i>A Manual for Creating Atheists, </i>which
techniques I hope to launch on this non-scholarly person, who has, it seems,
stumbled on a great way to make money, a la L. Ron Hubbard, who said to Robert
Heinlein that no person who wants to make money gets a job; they start a
religion. <o:p></o:p></span></div>
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-58828997743014985932013-12-10T19:18:00.000-07:002013-12-10T20:17:18.786-07:00You can make all the statements you want, but if you don't back them up...<h5 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><span class="fwb" style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="color: #141823; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="line-height: 12.85pt;">This is a re "print" of a conversation yesterday. As always, I'm very frustrated by the very slippery nature of "religious" people, who have so many </span><span style="line-height: 17.125px;">interesting</span><span style="line-height: 12.85pt;"> opinions but will not back those up and worse, slide away from any question put to them via any manner of logical fallacy.<br /><br />The person in question did not return to this conversation but posted the following, interesting retrospective of it on their own site (in quotes). I note the person accuses me of saying "all religious people are idiots." I did not, nor did any of the other commenters, so I have asked the person in question for a public apology on that account. </span></span></span></h5>
<h5 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;">
</h5>
<h5 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;">
<br /><span class="fwb" style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><i class="_dxs img sp_d15208 sx_adf28b" style="background-image: url(https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/yO/r/GlR-o2fQR2W.png); background-position: -248px -298px; background-size: 514px 368px; color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: inline !important; font-size: 12px; font-weight: normal; height: 20px; line-height: 12px; opacity: 0; text-decoration: none; width: 16px;" title="Options for this story"><u style="display: inline !important; left: -999999px; position: absolute;"><a aria-expanded="false" aria-haspopup="true" class="_5kan _p" data-ft="{"tn":"p"}" href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag/posts/10151764860291561?comment_id=27583930&offset=0&total_comments=8&notif_t=feed_comment_reply#" id="u_jsonp_12_6" rel="toggle" role="button" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: inline !important; font-size: 12px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 12px; text-decoration: none;">ptions for this story</a></u><u style="display: inline !important; left: -999999px; position: absolute;"><br /></u></i></span></h5>
<h5 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;">
<span class="fwb" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><div class="_6nm userContentWrapper" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 3px; margin-top: 2px; max-width: 480px; word-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="userContent" style="display: inline;">
<i><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: x-large;">"</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">Recently, someone posted a comment calling all religious people idiots. I jumped right in, because I find religious and political debates hilarious. </span></span><span style="color: #cc0000; font-size: 14px;">(HOUSTON, we already have a problem here. "Hilarious," is not a great starting point if someone intends to engage in a discussion of this sort. Secondly, this person accused me of something I did not write)</span></i><br />
<div style="font-size: 14px;">
<i><span style="color: #cc0000;"><br /></span></i></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="_6nm userContentWrapper" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-top: 2px; max-width: 480px; word-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="userContent" style="display: inline;">
<i><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><span style="color: #141823;">People get all fired up and irrational. Arguments from the other side aren't even considered, just summarily dismissed as people wait for their turn to spew practiced points. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">(Well that's fairly pejorative.... )</span></span></i></div>
</div>
<div class="_6nm userContentWrapper" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-top: 2px; max-width: 480px; word-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="userContent" style="display: inline;">
<i><span style="color: #cc0000;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><br /></span></span><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">But this one left a sour taste in my mouth, and I realized why. </span></span><br /><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">Religion isn't the evil that plagues humanity as this person suggested, it's intolerance. </span></span></i><i><span style="color: #cc0000;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">(The funny part of this being religions are, by definition, intolerant of other paradigms, given followers are always on the job of making converts; indeed, as it relates to christianity and islam, followers are required by their "gods" through their "holy" texts, to be always on the job.... )</span></span></i><i><br /><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">Any time you get a group of people who think they are better than another group, you're going to have problems. Nazi-sized problems. </span></span></i><i><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">(Wow. Ok, so this writer has made a logical fallacy here of assuming the people writing opinions or citing facts she does not like or agree with 'think they're better than another group'.... )</span></span></i><br />
<i><span style="color: #cc0000;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><br /></span></span><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">This person praised pioneers in science for their imagination and curiosity while summarily deriding others for having the gall to wonder if there is a greater power in the universe. </span></span></i><i><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">(I did NO such thing and this person, a journalist, knows better and has trampled on their journalistic ethics by making that statement)</span></span></i><br />
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a><i><span style="color: #cc0000;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><br /></span></span><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">Yes, bad things have been done by religious people. Religion has been used as a tool to control uneducated masses. But bad things have been done by non-religious folk as well, </span></span></i><i><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">(however NOT in the name of atheism or humanism or secularism) </span></span></i><i><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">and other tools have been used to influence people. We could point fingers and cite examples all day and never get anywhere. </span></span></i><br />
<i><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"><br /></span></span></i>
<i><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">Life is short, and it is often hard. A little love, no matter what one chooses to believe about our minute existence here on earth, would go a long way. </span></span></i></div>
</div>
<div class="_6nm userContentWrapper" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-bottom: 3px; margin-top: 2px; max-width: 480px; word-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="userContent" style="display: inline;">
<i><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">That's all.</span><span style="font-size: x-large; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;"> "</span></span></i></div>
</div>
</span><i><span style="color: #cc0000;"><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 18px;">(Such a nice sentiment from someone who as twice attributed statements to me when I made no such statements, and who is calling for tolerance, but cannot tolerate challenges to whatever they think they "believe." I will state here too, there is a huge, chasmic difference between tolerating something or someone, and accepting)</span></span></span></i></h5>
<h5 style="line-height: 12.85pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
</div>
<span class="fwb"><span style="color: #141823; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: x-small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></span></h5>
<h5 style="line-height: 12.85pt; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;">This is the article I originally commented on:</span><br /><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span></span></span></h5>
<h5 style="margin: 0cm;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; line-height: 15.7pt;">
<h2>
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/kenyan-pastors-burn-hiv-drugs-after-praying-victims" target="_blank"><span style="color: #232b37; font-size: small; text-decoration: none;"><i>Kenyan Pastors Burn HIV Drugs After Praying For Victims</i></span></a></span></h2>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">Pastors at some Pentecostal
churches in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region></st1:place>
are conducting prayer services to “cure” patients infected with HIV,
confiscating their anti-retroviral drugs and charging a fee for their healing
prayers. The new trend is especially worrisome as patients may...<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="color: #adb2bb; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-transform: uppercase;">OPPOSING VIEWS<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/kenyan-pastors-burn-hiv-drugs-after-praying-victims" target="_blank"></a></span></div>
<div style="border: none; line-height: 12.85pt; padding: 6pt 0cm 0cm;">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; line-height: 11.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #EBEBEB .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 6.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm; padding: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Equally
idiotic is the stance that religion has never helped anyone. Religion is a
power much guns, it all depends on who
is wielding it. In the right hands, religion can inspire greatness, love,
selflessness, but in the wrong hands can bring suffering and death.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="border: none; line-height: 11.4pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid #EBEBEB .75pt; mso-padding-alt: 6.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm; padding: 0cm;">
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>The irony is that those HIV drugs were
probably paid for by a Christian aid group<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: red;">(Unsubstantiated
statement)</span></span><span style="color: red;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>How does religion help anyone? Also,
guns are real. </span><span style="color: red;">(Unanswered question
1.)<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/suzan.mcevoy"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">SM</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Gives them false hope.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br />
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="https://www.facebook.com/alicia.whelan.1" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">AW</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">Every sane person
on the planet knows right from wrong without needing a religion to tell them.
It's a natural instinct of all animals and probably the only remaining animal
instinct in humans that is beneficial. In many cases religion only alters and</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">blurs what
is right and wrong. Killing is wrong, but killing in the name of god is
acceptable?? Many religions enforce these altered ideas of right and wrong with
blind faith and self-righteous attitudes, which in turn, creates more problems
pertaining to ethics and morals. I firmly believe the most ethical and moral
human beings are the ones who know right from wrong and also have no
affiliation to any religion.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Sing it,
Sistah!</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">There is not
a single good thing done by any religious person or motivated by any religious
group that could not have been done without religion. Not a single good
deed in the world ever needed a god to make it happen, because humans are not
robots.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Religion is
NOT a force for good in any logical sense if only for the reason it convinces
good people they cannot be good without the slave master's threats of hell.
AND, if a person is only good because they are motivated by the (false) reward
of heaven, they are an opportunist, not a good person.</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Ha ha
Julie, religion IS real, I think it's God you don't believe in... And whether you
to believe it or not, we all have our own religion (a system of beliefs and
rituals) whether its consumerism, atheism or Christianity. To name a few.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: red;">(Tara is engaging in
another logical fallacy here, this time the fallacy called
"Bandwagon.")</span></span><span style="color: #4e5665;"><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">And you're
right, there's not a single thing done by a religious person that couldn't have
been done by someone else. But it sure as hell doesn't happen very often.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="color: red;">(Here, again, <st1:place w:st="on">Tara</st1:place> has
made a statement but provides no support for it whatsoever. Research clearly
shows her statement to be untrue and unfounded)</span><span style="color: #4e5665;"><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">And humans aren't robots? Have you seen any Black
Friday videos. I'd say that's some pretty scientific evidence right there.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">And lastly, if you don't believe in organized
religion or wing nuts telling people what to believe, why are you so fervently
attacking other people's ideologies?</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I mean, I don't wrap a scarf around my head everyday
but if it makes someone feel even a bit better about this cruel world we live
in, dear God, just give it to them.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I totally condone homeless people drinking too</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/suzan.mcevoy" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">SM</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">"And
you're right, there's not a single thing done by a religious person that
couldn't have been done by someone else. But it sure as hell doesn't happen
very often." You are kidding me
right? I know 100's of people who do random acts of kindness on</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">a daily basis and
it has nothing to do with their religion. Wow. I do know dozens of kind
religious people too. The two are not mutually exclusive. That said, some of
the worst cases of unkindness I've witnessed come from those 'godfearing
religious folk'. Mega hypocrites.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">You're
right, I don't "believe" in god(s). If there is no evidence, there's
nothing to "believe" in, and once there's evidence, one doesn't
believe, one knows.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">But just so we're clear here, WHICH god are you
suggesting I don't believe in? </span></span><span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: red;">(<st1:place w:st="on">Tara</st1:place> never answered this
question and never clarified her position on god(s))</span></span><span class="uficommentbody"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><br />
<br />
</span></span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: #4e5665;">There have been about 4000 gods dreamed up by humans. There
is not a shred of evidence for any of them, but I'm always interested in what
evidence people believe they have.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="color: #4e5665;"><br />
<br />
<span style="background: #F6F7F8;">I disagree very, very strongly with your
comment, "... there's not a single thing done by a religious person that
couldn't have been done by someone else. But it sure as hell doesn't happen very
often." This is decidedly NOT fact. Medecins sans frontiers is an entirely
secular organisation; Steven Lewis's organisation, also secular; CFI
international, secular; Planned Parenthood, secular; all the "sans
frontiers" organisations are secular; and joe buddy down the street, who
buys coffee for the people in line behind him/her, usually secular.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br />
<br />
<span style="background: #F6F7F8;">I'm "attacking" ideologies that have
shown themselves, time and time again, to be despicable and criminal, and which
hide abusers and liars and couch that in terms of "god wants it this
way."<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; color: red;"> (I would
like to point out and make it VERY clear I am not, have not and do not attach
PEOPLE; I do, however, challenged ideologies and I do appreciate when people
who hold those ideologies support and substantiate them)</span></span><span style="color: #4e5665;"><br />
<br />
<span style="background: #F6F7F8;">Religion does NOT make people feel better
about living in this world. It gives them false hope, which is bad, and
convinces them they are "sinners" and are faulty, and THAT is
criminal.</span><br />
<br />
<span style="background: #F6F7F8;">It is fascinating how often (AKA almost
always) the religious ignore atrocities committed in the name of their religion
or their god and committed by their leaders, and fall into the trap of false
pleadings or special knowledge or straw man arguments, rather than just say,
"THAT is horrifying," which should be the response to the story
above. It is HORRIFYING.</span><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>OoooWeee! Kicked a hornets nest<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
Julie, does it matter which god, lol? I should've put an s after god. My point
was that religion is very real and you don't have to believe in gods to have
strange ideas floating around in your noggin.</span><span style="color: red;"> (This is
an interesting turn of point of view, as it quite contradicts <st1:place w:st="on">Tara</st1:place>'s
earlier stance)<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br />
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">And just to
insult an ideology even further, the Catholic church - the POPE himself - went
on Twitter and asked for donations for the victims of Haiyan and that MONEY,
which could have gone directly to very, very needy people, was used to purchase
rosaries and bibles. PLASTIC BEADS and </span></span><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color: #4e5665;">fairy</span></span><span class="uficommentbody" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"> stories. Seriously.</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"> </span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;">
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Can you imagine what might have happened if that
idiot had appealed to people to send dollars rather than contribute to the
purchase of useless baubles that did NOTHING for the people and a LOT for
enriching the vatican, via the profits that organisation makes through
production of said plastic crap.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">There was a second organisation, also catholic, that
used $3000 to also buy rosaries, which they also sent to the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Philippines</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
THAT is CRIMINAL behaviour.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Whereas, many, many secular and humanist
organisations sent funds - useable stuff, money is - to aid organisations (Also
secular) to help those people begin rebuilding.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Elsewhere in <st1:place w:st="on">Africa</st1:place>,
children are being thrown out of their communities when they are accused as
witches. Seriously. These heavily religious communities are tossing away their
children. In other communities, albino children are also discarded and very
often mutilated, because the religious leaders say those children are witches
and the communities are so brainwashed by their religion and their
"leaders" they treat their children
trash AND they countenance those children being tortured and often
murdered. Who looks after those kids??? A SECULAR organisation that rescues
them. SECULAR. NON-religious.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Who is looking after boys who are mutilated through
circumcision rites? SECULAR organisations that pick up after the witch doctors
who cut these boys up and "pray" over them, while their wounds are
festering,. and when their "prayers" come to nothing, they throw
these sick children into the streets, where secular doctors and nurses help
them.</span><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>And whether you need a bible or a
joint or even just a coffee to get you through the day, take it. Life is short.
</span><span style="color: red;">(This logical fallacy is called "appeal
to emotion" and it serves to distract from the main argument, which, in
this case, is the realities of religion as it relates to atrocities, which <st1:place w:st="on">Tara</st1:place> is ignoring by her statement here)<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Ok. Let's take on this one statement.
"Religion is real." Substantiation please<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.godisimaginary.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">www.godisimaginary.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godisimaginary.com%2F&h=3AQFOlLGzAQFoZqQXj48QhshfquTtY9q8UESchOIeDFTPaA&s=1" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt=""
style='width:72.7pt;height:114.75pt' o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.jpg"
o:href="https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCZCBkTVHcAK3Ux&w=154&h=154&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgodisimaginary.com%2Fgif%2Fbible.jpg"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #333333;"><a href="http://www.godisimaginary.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs</span></a></span><span style="color: #333333;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span class="caption"><span style="color: #898f9c;"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godisimaginary.com%2F&h=eAQHfEVQhAQEStAWbR8NU6iFdyo0dSzvc3XQczgpHWPWBFA&s=1" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">www.godisimaginary.com</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #898f9c;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;">SM </span><span style="color: #4e5665;">Sadly religion is real - even though the
Gods aren't. And the amount of brainwashing and mistreatment of people at the
hands of those religions is ridiculous. The sooner religion leaves society, the
better.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>^ True.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Yup, SM, that's what I meant. Even
if you don't believe in god, you can't argue that some people do and that
belief is real. John believes that
windex cures herpes. Is that true? No. But is it true that John believes this?
Yes.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>And all the crap you pointed out that
religious people have done, I could point out an equal amount of crap that
non-religious people have done.</span><span style="color: red;"> (We're back to
this premise that evil exists but that evil is committed in the name of
religion by the religious, whereas, unless the person is insane and believes
themselves to be 'god,' non-religious people do NOT commit crimes or atrocities
in the name of any dogma or philosophy. This is a critical distinction)<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Just as true is SM's comment that
non-religious ppl do good stuff too.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Which is
why atrocities continue to happen - because there are not more people like SM, AW and me, who "attack" ideologies that are CLEARLY
dangerous, damaging and in far too many cases, murderous.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Yes, you CAN point out that all humans have the
capacity for great good and great evil.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">You cannot,
however, in any circumstance, show where atrocities are committed in the NAME
of atheism, whereas there are centuries and centuries worth committed in the
name of religion and gods.</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>This is fun, isn't it?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
Don't lie, you totally got fired up about this. You're going to remember this
discussion long after you forget how to make wasabi peas or that your cousin
got her braces off or any other post today.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I take any opportunity to expose
religions for being as close to terrorism as they are, without co-opting the
actual term.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Well, we'll have to disagree. I think
religion is great 90% of the time. </span><span style="color: red;">(And again, <st1:place w:st="on">TS</st1:place> has provided no logical reason for this, and has
ignored all the verifiable, obvious reasons religions are NOT great)<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>"My religion is very simple. My
religion is kindness."<br />
Dalai Lama<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Ok, Show your work. Show me one single
instance where religion has done something NO other philosophy could have
accomplished.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="color: red;">(<st1:place w:st="on">TS</st1:place> at no point took me
up on this)</span><span style="color: #4e5665;"><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">As much as I appreciate the Dalai Lama, and
appreciate the sweetness of that sentiment, it isn't accurate. Religion is defined as a set of codes and
behaviours, expectations and dogmas.<i>
Kindness is decidedly outside the realm of "religion" and needs no
religion to exist. Kindness is an innate human drive and has absolutely nothing
to do with religion, and in demonstrable fact, there are hundreds and thousands
of cases where kindness has been much trampled by the expectations of religion. </i></span></span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><span class="uficommentbody"><br /></span></span></span>
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><span class="uficommentbody">Case in point the couples - plural - who are on trial for murder, some
for the second and third times - for having caused their children to suffer
horribly and to have allowed those children to die rather than seek out a
doctor. Kindness went to hell in those situations. Atheist/humanists/secularists/brights
do NOT allow their children to die because they default to muttering into the
air. There is naught kind about religions that instil the means of overriding
kindness and no person ever needed religion to be kind and moral. Ever. Not
once in all of 14 billion years of this planet's history.</span><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br />
<br />
<span style="line-height: 11.4pt; text-decoration: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent" style="color: #232b37; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">ME</a></span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">AND the story above is another case in
point, where kindness - the provision of life-saving, family-saving drugs was
destroyed thanks to religion overriding pure human kindness and caring.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br />
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag" style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">I don't
think this argument really has to do with religion.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span><span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">There are good people and there are bad people.
There are smart people and there are stupid people.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">
<span class="uficommentbody">When you have a bad, smart person, they will use
whatever tool is at their disposal to gain power. Sadly, religion is often one
of those tools.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br />
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">But many good people have also used religion as a
tool.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">You can't blame evil on religion anymore than
religious people can blame evil on the devil.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Google it, scientists have long shown that some
animals are vicious for no reason. That "animals know what's right"
statement is ridiculous. Some baboon species in the wild kill for the fun of
it.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="font-size: 14px; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="font-size: 14px; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="font-size: 14px; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="font-size: 14px; margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a></div>
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br />
<span class="uficommentbody" style="color: #4e5665;">At the end of the day, religion is just a set of
codes, invented back when people didn't know shit about shit, to help people
live together and maybe enjoy life and maybe not stress out if your one shot at
life is pure misery.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #cc0000;">(OK, so, why, in a post-modern civilization - and I'm speaking here of Canada, the UK, USA, Germany, etc, not of middle-eastern, theocracies, do we still rely on what this person admits here was devised when "people didn't know shit about shit?)</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Speak out against evil people, I'll join you.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Speak out against religion, and I'm not with you.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">(Ah. I see. Censorship where it relates to a subject this person doesn't have fully in hand and doesn't want to be challenged on. Very religious). </span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I'm all for hope. Even if its false. </span></span><span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">(Let me redact this: "I'm all for false hope." Really??)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small;"><span style="color: #4e5665;">AW</span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/alicia.whelan.1"></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Religion is
the poison that plagues mankind! Simply created by man, to control man. There
was a time when the church ruled all; it was called the dark ages. Humans are
fools to believe that religion isn't a means of control by the elite! It is
science</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">which moves mankind forward. Absolutely un a religion
which essence is not to question laws, thus not revealing secrets of nature,
not gaining this kind of knowledge. <br /><br />Today it is accepted that it wasn't
prayers, nor miracles that helped mankind achieve great discoveries and so
increase advancement progress of our society. It was human curiosity and
ability to solve mysteries of nature; mathematics, physics, biology and many
other areas of science. I stand by my views that the decisions of these
crackpot preachers to preach end enforce their "religion" over the
use of medicine is a decision to do nothing at all</span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">And you're
a fool if you think getting rid of religion is going to solve anything.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">How biased do you think our laws are to the elite?</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody"> I said,
smart, bad people will use any tool they can to maintain power. Take away
religion and they'll find another tool.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">PS no one is arguing about the crackpot preachers.
Even religious people think they are stupid. Even the crackpot preachers don't
believe their own shit. But they know how to make money.</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag">TS</a> JC</span>,
first of all thank you SO much for brightening an otherwise boring day of work.
I love this. Any time you want to debate, please pick me.<span class="apple-converted-space"> <o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color: #232b37;">ME </span></span><span style="color: #4e5665;">Just
to get me through the rest of my shift: one instance where religion did
something no other philosophy could have is its given us a reason not to kill
each other.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="color: red;">(TS ignores this fact, being yes, humans commit atrocities; however,
humanists, secularist, atheists do NOT commit atrocities in the name of any
god, dogma or philosophy. They also totally ignore the FACT that christianity and Islam DO countenance murder)</span><span style="color: #4e5665;"><br />
Go.<o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/alicia.whelan.1"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">AW</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">I had an
interesting discussion with somebody once on the same subject or rather in his
words, the "problem" of what should replace religion once we get rid
of it. I wondered what "problem" he was referring to. After all, when
you visit countries in <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place> you don't see a
pressing need to come up with some institutions that replace religion.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
SM <span class="uficommentbody"><i>Here's a
list of good things that religion provides (according to my friend): hope,
love, beauty, joy, and moral teamwork. These are the things we get from
organised religion.</i> Really? I haven't noticed that these things are missing
in the lives of my atheist friends. Nor have I noticed that the people of <st1:country-region w:st="on">Denmark</st1:country-region> or <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Belgium</st1:place></st1:country-region> are loveless, joyless and
incapable of moral teamwork.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
AW <span class="uficommentbody">In the
'cancer analogy' - when you cure cancer, do you replace the tumour with another
one? Why do we have to replace religion with anything? Everything can be found
in secular or atheist societies and individuals!</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">This has been an interesting debate but I will leave
it there for tonight.</span><br />
<br /><span class="uficommentbody">Take a look at this article:</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody"><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2385958/Religion-disappear-2041-people-replaced-God-possessions-claims-leading-psychologist.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Religion-disappear-2041...</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2385958/Religion-disappear-2041-people-replaced-God-possessions-claims-leading-psychologist.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1027" type="#_x0000_t75" alt=""
style='width:115.5pt;height:69.15pt' o:button="t">
<v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image003.jpg"
o:href="https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDKREcyc_igd_Nn&w=154&h=154&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F08%2F07%2Farticle-2385958-1ABB085D000005DC-157_1024x615_large.jpg"/>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #333333;"><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2385958/Religion-disappear-2041-people-replaced-God-possessions-claims-leading-psychologist.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">Religion could disappear by 2041 because people will have replaced God with
possessions, claims...</span></a></span><span style="color: #333333;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<span style="font-size: small;"></span></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<span style="font-size: small;"></span></div>
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span class="caption"><span style="color: #898f9c;"><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #3b5998; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">www.dailymail.co.uk</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #898f9c;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #898f9c; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">Irish biopsychologist Dr Nigel Barber's
contentious book proposes the market for<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="textexposedshow">formal religion is being squeezed by modern substitutes
such as sports and entertainment - especially in more developed countries.</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">ME</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">@<st1:place w:st="on">Tara</st1:place>: WHEN did RELIGION give anyone the reason not to
kill others???</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Let's analyse: the New Testament is based on the
bloody torture and death of it's key character, not to mention the deaths of
many others.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">The Old Testament is nothing but a litany of the
Abrahamic god either killing its "created" beings, threatening them
with death or ordering them to kill neighbouring tribes - women and children
included, except for the virgins, which they were to keep as
"spoils."</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">In REAL life, there's not a mentally-stable human
around who doesn't know not to kill other people. NOBODY needs religion to tell
them that. Humans are social animals and innately know collaboration is a
better means to the end than killing whatever is in the way. RELIGION, however,
very much supports the idea of killing, mostly because the main invisible
characters function on the "Do what I say or I kill you," premise.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">So please explain to me how religion has "given
us a reason not to kill each other," when reality says exactly the
opposite. See 9/11 and every other terrorist act in the last 2000 years for
record.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/inquisition"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #898f9c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">#</span></span><span class="58cm"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">inquisition</span></span></a></span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/crusades"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #898f9c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">#</span></span><span class="58cm"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">crusades</span></span></a></span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/bombingsandshootingsofdoctors"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #898f9c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">#</span></span><span class="58cm"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">bombingsandshootingsofdoctors</span></span></a><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/rapeandkillingofgaypeople"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #898f9c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">#</span></span><span class="58cm"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">rapeandkillingofgaypeople</span></span></a></span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/tortureanddeathofsickchildren"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #898f9c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">#</span></span><span class="58cm"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">tortureanddeathofsickchildren</span></span></a></span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/sparetherod"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #898f9c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">#</span></span><span class="58cm"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">sparetherod</span></span></a>....</span><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">Hehehe
well, many religions state that killing other people is bad. And those
religious rules trickled down to the current laws we have today. From an
educated, scientific point of view, killing people would be great for our
planet as a whole </span></span></span><span style="color: #4e5665; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"><span class="uficommentbody"> (without</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="uficommentbody">religion we can do away with the ridiculous notion that we
are in any way different or more important than animals) but selectively
killing people with certain genes would be awesome for our species as a whole.</span></span><br />
<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: red; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">(</span><span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small;"><span style="font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">Gotta say, I'm pretty stunned by this </span><span style="font-weight: normal; line-height: 15.1875px;">statement</span><span style="font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;">. This writer ignores</span></span><span style="color: red; font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 11.4pt;"> the most staunch
proponents of the death penalty are the most religious; the most staunch
supporters of slavery -which is biblical, and never repudiated anywhere in the bible, by the way- were the religious)</span></span><br />
<div style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;">
<span class="uficommentbody"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/hitler"><span class="58cl"><span style="color: #898f9c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">#</span></span><span class="58cm"><span style="color: #2e57aa; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">hitler</span></span></a></span><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: #4e5665;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/tscag"><span style="color: #232b37; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;">TS</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>And @AW, I think you misread. There is no problem of finding something
to replace religion with. If we did away with religion today, people would find
another way of controlling the masses the very next day. Same thing vice versa,
ie the <st1:place w:st="on">Roman Empire</st1:place> making the quick shift to
Catholicism.</span><span style="color: red;"> (The <st1:place w:st="on">Roman Empire</st1:place> did not make "a
quick shift to catholicism." The Roman Empire co opted the many disparate
"pagan" religions, took from them interesting parts i.e. the winter
holiday celebration, co-opted some of those old religions' gods - i.e. Horus,
Mithras, etc, etc - combined them into one - "jesus" and gave that
character a life and a past, also based on those old religions). </span><span style="color: #4e5665;"><o:p></o:p></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 11.4pt;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><br /></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<span style="font-family: Georgia, 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal; line-height: 12.85pt;">This conversation ended
here but picked up with TS alleging on her page, I
had called all religious people idiots. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: 12.85pt;">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"></a><span style="font-family: Georgia, Times New Roman, serif; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">
<br />
I think religions are idiotic, untenable, and illogical and do not and cannot
pass the evidence test in any respect. I have good friends and family members who
are very religious and, as much as I cannot comprehend how, in a post-modern, science-based
civilisation, they are still religious, it is what it is. Dispensing with religion frees one from the tyranny of the invisible man, from overriding one's natural morality and frees one to think - because accepting myths of boats containing all the worlds animals floating about for a year, and a whole tribe of people wandering for 40 years but leaving no trace whatsoever, is not thinking. It is the antithesis of thinking.</span><o:p></o:p></div>
</h5>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-40500264664828515982013-11-10T14:52:00.001-07:002013-11-10T14:52:48.582-07:00Bad Karma, PossiblyMy youngest sister, who is 42 shortly, just had her first child, a daughter. My sister is lovely and the baby is lovely and it was a really welcome event, the arrival of this babe.<br />
<br />
Sister lives away, and has done for a bit more than two years, so it was quite the event when she travelled her, new baby in tow. Everyone she knows was thrilled - which is to say 99.9 percent of everyone. Having her, her daughter and my mother all in the same place, given her age, and my mother's age, is an event in itself. Add to this our grandmother, who is 107 and I, the photographer side of I, thought what a great opportunity to create a generational piece.<br />
<br />
I envisioned a photo of my niece, framed, and then a photo of my sister holding said frame, and then a photo of my mother holding that photograph, framed, and then, I hoped, I would engage my cousin in Nova Scotia, where our grandmother lives, to take the final shot, that of our grandmother holding said framed photo of the three generations after her.<br />
<br />
Enter reality.<br />
<br />
Our mother is, in a word, odd. She lives a fantasy life, where, when we are all together, everything is butterflies and roses. In real life, however, when we are all together, she resents every moment she is not the centre of attention. Imagine her discontent when everyone's focus was on my sister and little niece. Within days of my sister's arrival, my mother was beyond discontent. Within a week, she was fully-armed and stomping about the warpath, engaged at every moment in a quest to convince my sister she is an entirely flawed human and most of that stems from MY presence on the planet. She has, since my sister and niece's departure home, kept up a out-and-out campaign of discrediting my sister and me, and the guest my sister brought and who my mother welcomed with both of her two faces.<br />
<br />
My mother is jealous and angry. We have another sister, who puts my mother's behaviour down to her age. But my mother has never been content. My entire life she has been angry and self-absorbed and narcissistic - and, as my entire life is more than fifty years, I cannot put it down to age; it's something in her cells.<br />
<br />
When 15 days of my sister's visit had passed, it was clear this photograph was not going to happen and, more importantly, perhaps should not happen. I regret this part very much, but I could not in any ethical sense, burden my sister with this project, which would have culminated in a photograph she would probably hate, not for the fact of four generations and such an amazing range of ages, but for the reality of having to explain, someday, to my niece, who these women were and why we had so little to do with them.<br />
<br />
I hope we are rare as a family. I hope - I wish it fervently - we are members of a very small minority of people whose families are this fractured. We are not friends with our mother. We do not like her. Mostly we do not and cannot trust her. She is the definition of an abusive parent, lulling us into complacency, as we keep our distance from her. How many times have we thought, "She seems to have finally mellowed," only to reconnect and have her strike again, like a viper, leasing her venom to waft its stink about us.<br />
<br />
So there will be no four-generation photograph because the memories it would bring would be near-deadly.<br />
<div>
<br /></div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-30601110385837259802013-11-10T14:48:00.001-07:002013-11-10T15:05:59.803-07:00So, you're pissed off I asked you to support what your bible says. OK... <div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
I have a young nephew who is very, very involved in religion. I
have personal thoughts about how deeply-involved this youngster is - some
veering off to concern - but he's not in my city, so I can only have digital
conversations with him.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Those conversations are, in a word, FRUSTRATING.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
In the wake of the weather-related devastation in <st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:place></st1:state>, my young
nephew posted this:<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
"Pray for <st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:place></st1:state>."<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
This set me off HUGE. I asked him, point blank, what he thought
the entire state had been doing over the previous days and over the last
probably 200 years, every time terrifying weather was bearing down on that
state. No reply other than, "you're a jerk to challenge god," type
replies.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
There is absolutely NO evidence, what so ever over any time, in
any situation, in any case that prayer produces ANY result.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Despite the bible's more than 38 verses specifically on the
subject, and its assertions 'god' answers all prayer, that is absolutely,
obviously, verifiably NOT the case.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Here's what ensued; My comments are set off in blue<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Pray for <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:state></st1:place>.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">J</a>C<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Really? BP, do you REALLY think, when
those storms are approaching, those people aren't already praying?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b><br /></b></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b>Those people in the bible belt spend a LOT if time praying and yet the storms
still come and still devastate.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b><br /></b></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b>Seriously.</b></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b><br /></b></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b>DO something for <st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:place></st1:state>.
Red Cross is accepting donations, which are real, concrete and useful.</b></span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span class="apple-converted-space">HW: </span>Prayers are definitely needed..
Thankyou so much.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">J</a>C<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Prayer is useless. DO something.</span></b><br />
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b>
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;">The logical fallacy here is ridiculous!<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><br />
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b>
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;">Do you REALLY think those peoplw havent been praying themselves to bits? Or are
you saying they're not doing it right/enough, thus blaming the victims.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><br />
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b>
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;">Disgusting<o:p></o:p></span></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;">JC If you people have the audacity to claim that not a soul has
bee praying up to now... Your bible says "if tow are gathered in my name
it will be granted..."(I paraphrase).<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><br />
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b>
<b><span style="color: #0b5394;">It is endlessly egotistical and insulting to ask for "prayer," ignore
the thousands who do with NO result and ask them to keep on doing it. Insulting
and ridiculous.</span></b><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: I live in <st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:place></st1:state>. I know how scary this situation
is. People are stuck on streets and people in <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Moore</st1:place></st1:city> have no homes. Prayers are more useful
than any donation! (<b><i>I bloody doubt it)</i></b> If you haven't noticed, authorities have to tell people to
stop coming to help because so many people step up to pray<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span> and help after these things. If you
don't think it helps, then keep that opinion to yourself. (<i>predictable "christian" censorship)</i> Because here in our
little "bible belt" we love God and the prayers we say are very
effective. Even if we have nothing<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>
but the shirts on our backs. I hope you realize that someday. God loves you.
And praying is enough! And no not everyone here in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:state></st1:place> are Christians and desperately need
prayer to be safe. What are we suppose to do other than pray at this time? Run
out infront of the tornado and beg it to stop? What does that do? What help
does that do that get yourself killed? So best thing to do is ask God to keep
is hand on all the family's being effected and the one that have no place to
go.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: We never said no one was praying! Of corse (sic) everyone
is praying right now! All BP asked was that people that aren't praying to
please keep them in their thoughts and prayers.</div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
We are asking prayer for the people
who aren't praying thankyou very much.<br />
<br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Did you just actually write, in a
public forum, that useless muttering into the air is more useful than concrete
help?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">The audacity if the ego! How dare you! People need food, water and shelter,
which they will get from other REAL humans.</span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">And with all those already praying, why doesn't your "god" just
respond and stay the winds.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">Your illogic is STUNNING.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">I am appalled.</span></b></i><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: You would be surprised at how many
people don't pray here! They are selfish! If you say it's insulting to ask for
prayer your wrong! You saying that is insulting to the people dying, being
stripped of homes, and being injured.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Really.</span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">It is disgusting. Fully. You seriously don't see how appalling your comments
are?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">How dare you blame people for this act of NATURE?</span></b></i><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>If you think prayer for just a small
group is enough, you are severely miss led.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I didn't blame anyone!!!! What the
heck! Your putting words into my mouth! I never once said this was anyone's
fault! Your right it's nature it happens! But praying that God will keep
everyone safe is NOT blaming people for this!<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Why would you not pray to a God bigger than any situation we come
to face? I know I would be.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>So explain to me, with all these
people praying why your god does nothing.</b></i></span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: God works in mysterious ways. He is
helping now. <span style="color: #0b5394;"><i>(load of shit)</i></span> We maybe not see it right at this second. But he is. He is
protecting people right now. You can see him working through all the people
praying and working to help get people to safety. God is doing everything right
now. In the bible is says, he will never leave us nor forsake us. He is here
with us right now. You just can't see it because you have no faith in him. <span style="color: #0b5394;">(<i>additional load of shit)</i></span>You
look over the good things that are happening. You just look at the big problem
and say he is doing nothing when he is actually doing everything.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>How many hundreds if times has the
region been devastated by tornados and how many hundreds of thousands over the
years have prayed and NOTHING.</span></i></b><br />
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;">When is this god of your planning to stop ignoring the prayer s he promises to
ALWAYS answer?</span></i></b><br />
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;">The atheist community put out a call for donations and raised 1/2 a million
dollars in two days</span></i></b><br />
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;">And how dare your pray and ask your god to change its mind about its divine
plan! How dare your challenge the will of god, who creates this weather and you
and decides where the storms will hit!</span></i></b><br />
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;">Prayer is a ridiculous, torturous waste of time and does NOTHING but make the
lazy feel better.</span></i></b><br />
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;">Do you begin to comprehend your dilemma?<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></i></b></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;">What utter bullshit.</span></i></b><br />
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="color: #0b5394;">EITHER your god makes good on its promises or it is a malicious, murderous
asshole.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Nothing you say is true! God never
promise us a perfect life! Things happen because in the beginning sin came into
the world! This happen because of sin! God created us and loves us! God doesn't
ignore us! He listens and answers prayers! Like I said before! And you say they
raised that money? Well think about this, guess how many people were praying
that people would help give in order to help. Guess how many prayed that more
people would get out of their homes and help. Let me answer, A LOT! So your
saying that an atheist community raised money, well so didn't many church's,
schools, and family's. that is answer to prayer. You will not see God just all
of a sudden fix something. He uses everyday people to show it. Yes god knows
what is to come. But it is a blessing to be warned before huh. If this was a
perfect world with no sin, then these things wouldn't happen. We would all
worship God and we would never feel pain or hurt.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>If that's your opinion, then that's
your opinion. I know what I believe and I know God isn't just some God that
likes to toucher us. He loves us and what's us all in heaven one day with him.
I hope someday you realize that.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Torture, actually and yes, actually,
given this 'god' of yours has, for as long as the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>
has been a country and <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:state></st1:place>
a state, ignored every single prayer, and particularly those "Please turn
this from us," it certainly seems to enjoy torturing it's subjects.</span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">OR, it is impotent OR it is non-existent. What is is NOT, is real, able to act
on prayer, or willing to act on prayer, despite the what? 12 biblical verses
that say it WILL answer prayer....</span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">As for 'sin' coming into the world, your "god" supposedly created a
man from dust, gave him free will and a wife from a rib (a biological
impossibility, unless you say you believe in magic), knew every hair on their
heads and every thought they had, set them up for failure and added in the
also-impossible talking snake, and did nothing to stop it even though he knew
what they were up to and then blamed them for it.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">THAT, my dear, is what an abusive spouse does.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></i><br />
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;"><br /></span></b></i>
<i><b><span style="color: #0b5394;">I'm going to copy this conversation and pull out the questions I asked you,
which you did not answer, and all the circular and contradictory reasoning you
proposed.</span></b></i><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I'm sorry you believe this way. I know
what I believe and I am very faithful to my God. He loves me and he proved it
to me many many times. Yes I'm a Christian, no I do not have a perfect life, no
I don't have all the answers. But I do know what is true an I believe it with
all my heart. I know in the end that I'm going to heave to be with my savior
forever. If you don't believe that way then that is you.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Thankyou for helping realize I really
need to seek out the answers to questions I don't know.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Oahhahaha... Oh Heather... I'm just
re-reading your comments. How you turn and struggle to avoid acknowledging the
obvious....<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I didn't struggle at all? I knew what
I was talking about. All I said was I don't know everything. Neither to you.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Let's start here: How many cultures
have the "creation" myth? How many of them are older than
christianity? (I'll give you this one. ALL of them).</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>Is god all knowing, all powerful?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>Does 'god' have a plan for everyone?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>Is god responsible for the earth and everything in it?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>Does god control the winds, the sun, the moon and the tides?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>In how many places in the bible is it stated god answers all prayer?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>How many times in the last 200 years have tornadoes caused devastation in just <st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:place></st1:state>?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is the percentage of christians in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:state></st1:place>?
How many of those do you suppose are praying on a regular basis (estimate is
acceptable)?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>Referring to the many biblical promises that god answers prayer, and taking
into account the large demographic of christians in Oklahoma who (we can
assume) are praying on a fairly regular basis), and also taking into account
the number of times Oklahoma has been devastated by tornadoes, WHY does god
ignore prayer?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>RE heaven: given the amazing many-year-long voyage of Hubble and the astounding
images being returned by that vessel, and given there are 400 GALAXIES like the
one we live in that are viewable by the human eye, and given that with all the
Challenger missions and the current space station and all the satellites
currently in orbit and that at NO time has "heaven" been viewed,
discovered or even suspected, what is YOUR evidence for this mythical place?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is the definitive proof for your god and why does that proof not ALSO
prove the other 4000+ gods humans have created, including the gods that other
religions are ALSO positive are real?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is one verified, corroborated incident where prayer was proven to be the
cause of a desired result? Provide the verification.</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is the biblical penalty a man must pay for raping an unmarried woman? What
is the penalty that woman's father must pay?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>In the bible, does it say "Happy are they who smash their little ones on
the rocks," or is that made up?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What penalty did god order for a group of little children who taunted an old,
bald man? Hint - bears.</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>By what earthly thing can god be stopped?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is the penalty for wearing mixed fabrics? For planting mixed crops? For
cutting one's sideburns?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What must one do if one's neighbour is not a believer?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What must parents do with their disobedient kids? (Hint: Leviticus)</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is the verified archaeological evidence for a small tribe of people
wandering about in a very small area of desert for 40 years? Has any evidence
ever been discovered that would verify this story?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>If six cubits is as high as a mountain, then how did Noah manage to feed all
the animals twice a day on a wooden boat that was 18 MILES long?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>If Noah had two of every kind of animal only, what did he feed the carnivores
for a year?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is the weight of two of all the know species of just spiders? (Answer: 5
tons)</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>How did Noah, at 600 years old, know about and then acquire polar bears from
the north pole and penguins from the south, and iguanas from the Galapagos?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>How did Noah, at 600 years of age, manage all the poop that would have piled up
on that ship every day?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>How did Noah, at 600 years of age, know if he had all the animals of the world,
what they ate and how to keep the bacteria he would have also had from killing
the hosts they lived on?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>OK. Go.<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Oh yeah! Also, HOW exactly did god
manage to create light and dark TWO days before sun, moon and stars? Magic is
not the answer. Either there is a light source or there is not. Can't have it
both ways.<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Go here:</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A&feature=player_embedded">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A&feature=player_embedded</a><o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<strong><span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><br /></i></span></strong></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBH0rFZIqo8A%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded&h=sAQH8wG4IAQHH3jr9BX4-ovwfpKMVY0KHA13FTKIox-70dA&s=1">Proving
that prayer is superstition</a><o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>For details:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2FWhyWontGodHealAmputees.com%2F&h=dAQEzBBTsAQEpnKgRVb3i1fqMih5iRLdbhXSOYnD0AW54Zw&s=1">http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com/</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span class="apple-converted-space" style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>HW, the way you wrote this - with
a question mark, where there should not be one, is telling: "I didn't
struggle at all?" By writing that statement and ending it with a question
mark, you expose that you were struggling and you know you were. It has the
effect of you asking yourself if you struggled and answering that question at
the same time.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>I really hope you will answer all those questions up there. You needn't post
the answers, but I hope you will go find out. I'm sure it will be revealing.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>I also hope you will listen to that video above.<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Matthew 18:19. Either this is true or
it is not true. IF you are honest with yourself and you consider the last 200
years in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:state></st1:place>,
the number of christians who pray and the fact of devastating weather you
either have to ignore reality in order to "believe" in prayer or you
have to be real and acknowledge prayer is superstition.<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nayP4v4xYg">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nayP4v4xYg</a><o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-nayP4v4xYg&h=8AQHzybQ8AQEdElw3Mjo6JjRZwD-CKv-4-huVyrOjb_JHBw&s=1">Proving
that God's Plan is impossible</a><o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>By watching this short video, you will be able to prove to
yourself that the ide...<a href="http://www.blogger.com/null">See more</a><o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Psalms 139:16. Either this is true or
it is not. This cannot be negotiable.</b></i></span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/heather.watson.58">HW</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>You obviously haven't even read the
bible because almost all of the answers are found in there. (<span style="color: #0b5394;"><b><i>This is totally my favourite, because she didn't comprehend I was asking her questions right out of the bible).</i></b></span> A lot of the laws
in the Old Testament don't apply to today times. They find things that prove
the bible right all the time. If you would do some studying you would find the
answers to these questions. God is all powerful. And I put the question mark
because I was questioning why you even said that I was when you don't have all
the answers either. The answer to the questions are in the bible. And I have
experienced Gods presence many times and know he is real. Your just blinded by
what the world tell you. But again sin is in the world. It's not perfect.
Heaven is a real place. God never said it was in outer space. Again reading the
bible answers these questions. I'm just telling you God has really changed my
life. I know He is real and believe everything the bible tells me. I learn
something new everytime I read it. Showing that I don't know everything and
there is so much about God that I have to learn. No I will never know
everything about Him. He wouldn't be a mighty God if we all did know everything
about him.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Heather. I come from TEN generations
of ministers. I assure you I have read it - many times - and can quote it.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>I KNOW the answers are found in there. I'm asking you to go LOOK at these
verses and answer the questions I've asked you, from the bible.</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>WHO is "they" who are finding "things" (what things; be
specific) all the time.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>IF god is all powerful, then WHY does he NOT answer the prayers of millions?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>What is your EVIDENCE that heaven is a real place?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>Give me the exact place in the bible that says exactly where heaven is.</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>C'mon. Just answer these questions.<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW:I have looked. Many times. I grew up in church. Been over seas
on mission trips. Just got home from a church camp as a sponsor. I know what
the bible says and what I'm telling you in some of you questions don't even
matter! There just little thing that shouldn't even be questioned.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
BK: Okay keyboard warriors it's time for this to settle down.
BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE, pray for it, don't pray for it.. It shouldn't
bother you what someone else believes, your obviously not gonna convert each
others opinions so stop trying. This pissing war is turning into a fucking
facebook novel, Mark Zuckerberg should put a filter on anything that involves
religion. It just starts a flame war.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/JCVincent">JC</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>NO. THAT is a horrible idea.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Brandon</st1:place></st1:city>. Are
you SURE you mean what you just said?<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>JC: HW, answer some of these
questions.</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>NEITHER of you gets off the hook until you can stand behind what you claim.</b></i></span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
BK: I think its
better not to discuss matters like this via facebook, talking to someone in
person is way better. Also I think RELIGION is the downfall of a lot of things,
but I don't think being SPIRITUAL is bad.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ben.parker.319452/posts/10152921641705294?comment_id=41498312&offset=0&total_comments=73">31
May at 21:17</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>·<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ben.parker.319452?fref=ts" title="Like this comment">Like</a><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>JC: BK, in some cultures the belief is that a widow should be
burned on a pyre when her husband dies: Do you support that belief:</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>In some religions, women are held responsible for men's sexuality and so, when
they are very young girls, they are held down, in public, and subjected to a
man cutting out their clitoris and labia, in order they not tempt men. This is
a religious belief. Are you SURE you mean "believe what you want to believe,"
or is that act abhorrent to you?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>In some religions, albino children are considered witches and are hacked apart
with machetes. Are you SURE you mean what you say or is that act abhorrent to
you?</b></i></span><br />
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span>
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>"Spiritual" is a fence-sitting cop out.<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b><br /></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6498787" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=510281669&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" height="32" id=".reactRoot[6828457].[0][1][1]{comment10152921641705294_41495412}.[0].[0:0].[0]" src="file:///C:\Users\photo\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image003.gif" style="cursor: move;" v:shapes="_x002e_reactRoot_x005b_6828457_x005d_._x005b_0_x005d__x005b_1_x005d__x005b_1_x005d__x007b_comment10152921641705294_41498386_x007d_._x005b_0_x005d_._x005b_0_x003a_0_x005d_._x005b_0_x005d_._x005b_0_x005d_" width="32" /></a><span style="color: #0b5394;"><i><b>JC: As for Facebook, it is an excellent place for these
discussions, as they tend to be read. If one person gets real, steps back from
the crap they think they believe and THINKS for a second, then the discussion
has done its job.<o:p></o:p></b></i></span></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
</div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
MP: They definitely need our prayers. May God be close to everyone
affected and send those who can help quickly!<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: MP, 200 years of hundreds of thousands of people praying has
produced absolutely NO result. No matter how often people mutter into the air,
NOTHING will come of it. The people affected by the devastation need ACTUAL
help and ACTUAL support.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
It is an affront to desperate people to continue to ask them to
"pray" when there is utterly no BPefit. Not now, not ever.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: I never said the bible said exactly where heaven is. It says
it's a real place. About the weight of all the animals, that's why the boat was
so big. An the fact that God was with them the whole time. Noah was faithful
and did as God told him.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
What must one do if their neighbor isn't a believer? Well in the bible God said
go and make disciples of all nations. We are to lead others to come to know
Christ.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
No earthly thing can stop God.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
Noah had to being extra things on the ark to feed his family and the animals
Genesis 6:21. He also took younger animals because they don't have predatory
instincts yet and don't reproduce yet.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
All the animals came to Noah genesis 6:20<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: B, you are more than welcome to sign off, but you don't have
the right to censor<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: HW, fine. You've said three times now heaven is a real place.
WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE?<br />
<br />
AS for the 'boat,' the size is described twice in the bible. In one instance,
the boat is 2/3rds the size of the Titanic; in the second description, it is 18
MILES long. WHICH is correct?<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: Noah is not only a myth, the entire story is pulled from
religions much, much older than christianity. The first written incidence of
the "noah" story is 8000 years old and Babylonian.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: Also HW, you are incorrect when you state "A lot of the
laws in the Old Testament don't apply to today times." Read Matthew
5;18-19.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: How can the bible state that it's 2/3rds of the titanic if it
didn't even exist yet? Genesis 6:15: length 300 cubits, breadth 50 cubits,
height 30 cubits. Which makes it around 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, 45 feet
high, inside capacity would have been 1.4 million cubic feet. Deck area of 95,700
square feet.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: BK, a troll does not provide information and links: a troll
has only the function of stirring things up. I am asking you and Heather to
back up what YOU stated. If you cannot support your arguments, or if you are
bothered by being asked to support your argument, then don't make it.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: I never made the argument. You did. All I said at the
beginning was thankyou to BP for the prayers because they were needed<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: -18.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: Well, HW, that is a VERY good question! HOW can the bible
state ANYTHING that hasn't happened yet. And on that note, who, exactly, was
Also in the garden of Eden, reporting on these events.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
Also, if there was only Adam and Eve, who had two boys, one of whom killed the
other, and who eventually married, WHERE did his wife come from? #incest<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: Yes, you did, and I followed up with a LOT of information
showing via verifiable history, statistics and simple observation that prayer
is a ridiculous, insulting, useless waste of time.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>You are not
correct re the dimensions of that boat because elsewhere in the bible, six
cubits of water is described as "enough water to cover a mountain."
That's a <st1:place w:st="on">LOT</st1:place> of water and so your dimensions
and that description would mean the arc was 18 MILES long. Which is it? And why
is the bible contradictory on this very, very important measurement?<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I was talking
about the titanic. Quit turning my words into something I didn't mean for them
to be. Your (sic) just twisting my words to make you look right.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
MP: Uhh there is MUCH evidence from believers that prayer changes
things. It is our privilege as believers to talk to God and petition him for
our needs on on behalf of others. For those who do not believe it may seem like
a waste. And we receive anawers (sic) to prayer through the Holy Sprit which again
is reaerved (sic) for believers. if you do not believe it is understandable
that you do not get it. But I can speak from personal experience that God
answers prayer so I will continue<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: By the way, 450 feet long makes that boat about 1/2 the size of
the Titanic, which held what? 3000 people? There are far more animals,
particularly if you're talking of two at ta time, than 3000. THAT story is
utterly impossible and ridiculous.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>MP, please tell
me the last time believers took advantage of that privilege and prayed for
another believer who suffered an amputation, that the severed limb would
re-grow.<br />
<br />
WHAT evidence. I would LOVE someone to provide this evidence they keep talking
about.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>They don't pray
that it would regrow. But that the surgery would go well an that that person
will be able to live their life in a positive way again.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>There are lots
of people in the world that go out if their way to pray for people. For all
sorts of reasons. But it's just common sense in a situation like that to know
that it's not going to regrow. You just have to pray for what can be helped.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I am going to
sign off.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
I am appalled that people would rather sit about and mumble into the dark than
do something necessary and concrete.<br />
<br />
DOING something DOES result in a BPefit. Muttering into the dark does NOT.
Period.<br />
<br />
There is not a shred of evidence at all, at any time, that prayer is anything
more than muttering. Period.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
It sickens me that people resort to such a ridiculous and passive act, when so
many need real help, real blankets, real food, real somewhere to stay, real
care for their children, and when they get those things, they get them from
HUMANS, not some invisible idiot who is alleged to be all powerful and to have
a plan, but is absolutely deaf to how many prayers over how many years.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
IT IS APPALLING to ignore the reality of what you're all saying, when reality
absolutely and concretely proves prayer is utterly, fully, endlessly useless.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.godisimaginary.com/">www.godisimaginary.com</a><br />
<br />
I realise none of you will go to that site but if you ever have the honesty to
really challenge what you think you know, then you will.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<strong><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godisimaginary.com%2F&h=cAQGEjTsqAQFiOyXgbTFGd5UKBbhWj_v3peYsznvxGtU2qA&s=1">God
is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs</a></strong><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godisimaginary.com&h=-AQFrZbolAQEczrMcv7usO1l7Sb56A4l2jYQQciCVHsToAQ&s=1">www.godisimaginary.com</a><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: HW, the bible is CONTRADICTORY on the point of size.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Yeah, they don't pray for it to regrow.. Nice. Heather, you've
said some really dumb things here but that one wins. They don't pray for it to
regrow, because ALL humans get to that point where REASON and LOGIC override
their belief in fantasy. This is to say they KNOW no amount of prayer will
cause a severed limb to regrow.<br />
<br />
EITHER god is honest and true and WILL answer ALL prayers in the name of
himelf/hisson/theallinonegod including those CERTAINLY made by amputees that
their limbs regrow, or he does not.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW: Okay. Whatever you believe is how you believe. Again I know
what I believe and I know what the bible says. I'm not going to argue with you
about things that you can look up. Just because you don't believe in something
doesn't mean it's not true. Just because you listen to what other non believers
say doesn't mean it's not true. And I really like that you are telling me what
I say is dumb when you don't even what to try and listen to what I believe in.
I'm not going to keep saying what I believe it you keep trying to turn my words
into what I'm not saying.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>What I find so
appalling and weird is you who argue for prayer want it both ways: you state
god is true and does what he says, but then you IGNORE the FACT despite how
many years of horrific storms and how many millions of prayers, NOT A SINGLE
TIME has "god" lived up to "his word" and stopped any of
those storms, nor has any prayer, group of prayers, money paid for prayers EVER
caused a limb to regrow.<br />
<br />
You cannot have it both ways. Either god does what he says or he does not.
EVIDENCE shows he does not, which is not surprising given the near perfect zero
likelihood of the christian god being any more real than any of the other 4000
others humans have proposed.<br />
<br />
Now. If any of you actually wishes to do something concrete and ACTUALLY wants
to help, there are any number of charitable organisations taking money,
blankets, food, clothing.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>All I said was
people pray that people will be able to live their life again. And they will
get through the surgery. Praying isn't something you do to be selfish. It's
talking to God even when nothing's wrong. You have no idea what prayer is.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>No, HW, I do NOT
believe. I rely on evidence. If there is not viable evidence, there's no
reality. Belief exists despite evidence. Knowledge happens thanks to evidence
and fact AND is subject to constant revision, thanks to emerging evidence.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
So if you're the person who's had a limb cut off, it's selfish for
you to pray to have it regrow? Bloody hell. Do you not see how much
machinations you have to go through to make this all fit your paradigm?<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Go back and look up some of those questions. Seriously. Go
challenge yourself.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
I am particularly interested in how you will rationalise 200 years of horrific,
devastating storms in a heavily christian state, where one can assume there is
nea...<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ben.parker.319452?fref=ts">See More</a><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
HW:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Disasters happen
all over the world. Not just here in our Christian state. And if you can see on
tv all the donations and supplies donated are answers to prayers of the
effected.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I'm done trying to
explain that. I've said it so many times.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>I am going to
sign off.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
I am appalled by the conversation in that so many absolutely ignore reality and
resort to an act that is demonstrably useless.<br />
<br />
If you want to help, then contribute tangible things - clothing, food,
blankets, money. <o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<strong><a href="http://www.godisimaginary.com/">God is Imaginary -
50 simple proofs</a></strong><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<a href="http://www.godisimaginary.com/">www.godisimaginary.com</a><o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
BP, three: John 14:13,14; 2. And I will do whatever you ask in My
name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask Me for
anything in My name, and I will do it. 3. If you remain in Me and My words
remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: John 15:7 is the second one. Do you say these are true?<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
No answer?<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Here's the deal: either the 38 + verses in the bible that
GUARANTEE god will answer prayer are true or they are not. That said, if you
really synthesise them all, you will find that not a soul on this planet has a
hope of answered prayer because there are all sorts of conditions, including
what amounts to being guilty of thought crime. Very 1984.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
So. If we only consider Oklahoma and that weather has been tracked
there for let's say, conservatively, 100 or so years, and that Oklahoma is a
decidedly religious state, we can very safely assume there are faithful people
and generations of faithful families who have, for at least that many years,
been praying their hearts out their "god" will protect them from
devastation due to hurricanes and tornados.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
AND, if you check even the last 25 years of records, you will
absolutely find no such thing has happened.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
You cannot have it both ways. Either your 'god' is faithful and
just, and hears its subjects or it does not.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: The EVIDENCE is very, very clear: no amount of prayer results
in the desired action.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
The EVIDENCE is also very clear, prayer is utterly futile.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
NOW. Consider this: the bible states god PLANS the hours of your
birth and death. IF that is true, then prayer MUST be futile, because death
from whatever cause, natural, natural disaster, or abortion is PLANNED by this
god.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Either the bible is the word of god - and the hours of your birth
and death, and all the things you will do and will come to you are planned out
and known and decided by this god, or the bible is NOT the word of god.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
You can't have it both ways.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
And IF you say god is the supreme being, the father, and if you
say it/he/she knows every hair on your head and from before you were born, how
futile is prayer and how presumptuous are humans to pray to the being they say
is supreme, and as it to change it's "mind."<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
This is a CRITICAL reality for you and for religions in general -
as they all have a supreme, all-knowing being supervising everything and one
that requires its subject to be in constant adulation, despite those subjects
also attributing horrific weather, horrific acts (see Sandy Hook et all) to god
punishing them. It is frankly disgusting, BP.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Someone on your "pray for <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:state w:st="on">Oklahoma</st1:state></st1:place>" feed said prayer is more
important than aid. This is such a terrible, ridiculous thing to say. I will
tell you, as a parent and an auntie, if your children are hungry and without a
place to sleep, AID, not prayer, is what you want and need and to say suffering
is honourable, when that suffering might mean your child dies in your arms, is
fully, fully despicable.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
I realise I'm hammering you on these points but to ignore them, to
not really, fully understand what you say - and what it means - will lead you
to a place where you MUST, in order to support your paradigm, deny reality.
THAT is not a good state.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
A quote:<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
“It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvellous
universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of
animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their
motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that
God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil - which is the view that
religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.”-Richard P. Feynman0<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<strong>BP: </strong>I'm done. Fine you win, whatever. Yeah Im tired of constantly
hearing about all this crap how God can't save and prayer is wasted. There's a
ton I'd love to say, but what's the point. I'm not swayed but what you say and
your not swayed by what I say. In the end, when we both die, I guess we will
find out. Keep trying to prove that he isn't real, it's only going to be much
worse for you. I don't need quotes from scripture which you take out of line.
And I don't need to constantly say that things like <st1:place w:st="on">Sandy
Hook</st1:place>, are HUMANS who have free will to make these decisions. But
keep on going with what you believe. I'm done listening to someone who will be
ignorant about so much, and twist everything around. If your 100% sure your
right, read the bible front to back. Just read it, no stopping to rant about
how ridiculous it is. Just read it, and if I'm wrong and 4 other billion people
are, then it's all a hoax. And please don't respond, I don't need another
essay.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
JC: I'm not trying to 'prove god isn't real." I'm saying the
EVIDENCE that we DO have suggests 'god' is pretty much impossible and beyond
that, there's no good evidence to support the existence of ANY god.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
So here's my last question:<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
EVERY religion says it is right and true and that its particular
god is THE god.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
Can they ALL be true?<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
If not - and the answer MUST be "No, they cannot all be
true," then NONE is, because they all claim essentially the same thing.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm proposing that one
should really THINK about these things. It matters.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
It should also matter to you that you're not in a position of
clinging so firmly to things that are not substantiated that you are forced to
deny reality.<o:p></o:p></div>
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
<br />
<div style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin: 0cm;">
<br /></div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-85985495484919128302013-02-26T20:38:00.001-07:002019-02-12T17:56:40.068-07:00The List. Religion is STUPID. <div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<span style="font-size: large;"><a href="http://youtu.be/3PbVu0kq0Bc" target="_blank">How to know if god is an asshole.</a></span></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<a href="http://youtu.be/3PbVu0kq0Bc" target="_blank">CLICK that link. </a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<a href="http://youtu.be/3PbVu0kq0Bc" target="_blank"><br /></a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<a href="http://youtu.be/3PbVu0kq0Bc" target="_blank">DO it. </a></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<img border="0" height="531" src="https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-t-wdp4JY3-E/US2AW3Y_XpI/AAAAAAAALgU/DteMAo-yjMo/s640/God+Damn.jpg" width="640" /> </div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<span style="font-size: large;"><a href="http://youtu.be/3PbVu0kq0Bc" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/3PbVu0kq0Bc</a></span></div>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: center;">
Listen carefully. <br />
<br />
Analyse. </div>
WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-60019465116207268632013-02-11T10:52:00.003-07:002014-01-15T20:14:18.556-07:00The TRUTH about Mormonism.If you're new here,and you're sensitive, read on. I hope to divest you of any reverence for religions - any of them - and leave you with a free mind. <br />
Beyond being cultural curiosities, and interesting in the sense of how religions influence culture and politics, very occasionally for right but usually very much for wrong, we who benefit from completely unfettered access to research, opinion, learning, commentary, discussion, have no excuses where it comes to "believing" in things that are patently and obviously ridiculous. <br />
<br />
Believers have even less reason, if that is possible, to choose stupidity and blindness by refusing to acknowledge facts like evolution. One can rail on, like an idiot, all they wish, but the fact of evolution is still the fact of evolution, regardless that the idiot refuses to concede: believers simply and immediately falsify their "beliefs" by providing no support, no viable evidence, no undisputed research and no repudiated "experts" for their position; they simply resort to "How dare you?" and "You're going to burn in hell," when they have no basis for either sentiment, particularly as this is 2013, not 1520....<br />
<br />
There isn't a religion currently in operation that has any more substance than any of those having passed with other cultures. There is an absolutely equal amount of evidence for Thor or Zeus or Shiva or Krishna as there is for Christ, Mary and Joseph (whose names are remarkably middle-English... ); yet participants in any of the modern forms of believing-in-fantasy will literally fight to the death as "proof" of their choice of "god," none of whom every deign to actually turn up. <br />
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FLcT6J7MU9w/URktSUJjh-I/AAAAAAAALcM/Zvv9tsEi5xo/s1600/511ZJCcCU6L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FLcT6J7MU9w/URktSUJjh-I/AAAAAAAALcM/Zvv9tsEi5xo/s1600/511ZJCcCU6L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg" /></a></div>
I single out mormonism here, not because it is worse than any other religion but to republish this <span id="goog_1843145526"></span><span id="goog_1843145527"></span>brilliant and scathing resignation letter written by a woman who comes from many generations of mormoms. This woman's resignation should be put in the hands of every mormon on the planet. Please share it. <br />
<br />
I'm sure there are equally excellent letters written by members of any currently-active religions, and I hope today to find one written by a catholic of a certain stature that I might post here in honour of the departure of the ex-nazi, certainly-gay, rapist-hording, soon-to-depart criminal called the pope. I will scour Ex-Christian.net and The Clergy Project today, and will certainly come away with something wonderful. <br />
<br />
In the meantime, this quote from my friend, Nathan Phelps, who is the son of the notorious and odious man, Fred Phelps, leader of the God Hates Fags (and Canadians and Sweden...) family. <br />
<br />
For the record, Nate is a wonderful, loving, caring man who is the absolute-in-every-way-opposite of his father. He is the executive director of the Centre for Inquiry in Calgary - an international organisation<br />
<br />
This is their main site and I guarantee you, nothing I will ever write will equal the level of disgusting, angry and wrong this group is.<a href="http://www.godhatesfags.com/" target="_blank"> http://www.godhatesfags.com</a>/. <br />
<span style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-size: large;"><b><br /></b></span></span><span style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-size: large;"><b>"They called me a rebel and for years I bore that label with shame, until I realised that, confronted with the god of my father, the only moral option was rebellion."</b></span></span><br />
Nate Phelps<br />
<br />
If, in reading this, or any other post in this blog, you are offended, good: I hope that offence will drive you to further research to prove your point, and by doing such research, you will find the exhaustive mounds of information that will, if you are honest, end your reliance on "invisible means of support," and that you will understand being offended does not equal being able to shut up the source of your offence; were that the case, the millions and millions of us around the world who are offended by an organisation that, for how long, has harboured child rapists, or those organisations that cast children into the streets for misbehaviour, and sentences them to abuse, starvation and death by virtue of the label "witch" (currently, Africa), and the mormon church that is a very wealthy political organisation, founded on absolute lies and masquerading as a 'religion' would have long disappeared. <br />
<br />
And now, for your reading pleasure and your intellectual enlightenment, this excellent, researched, pointed indictment of an organisation that can only be described as being founded on the dung heap created by christianity.<br />
<br />
If you read this and connect with the links provided, and you're still a mormon, you have simply chosen stupidity. End of story. <br />
<br />
<h2>
<a href="http://www.salamandersociety.com/x-files/dianne_ormond.html">The Most Damaging Statement Destroying The Mormon Church Ever</a></h2>
<h2 align="center">
<b>It Started with Science</b></h2>
<div align="center">
<i>By Dianne Chryst Ormond</i></div>
<div align="center">
<br /></div>
I was born-in-the-covenant, lived in Utah my whole life, four
years of seminary, returned missionary to England, Bachelors and Masters
Degrees in Education from Brigham Young University where I was Young
Women President twice, married in the Provo temple, multiple Relief
Society, Primary, and Young Women Presidencies amongst a myriad of other
callings, and stalwart, dedicated, magnify-my-callings, honest, and
true believing LDS member. I have always had an extremely strong
conscience that kept me on the straight and narrow path, always striving
to do right, and never rebelling.<br />
<br />
So what started my disbelief? It started with science.<br />
<br />
Beginning in
seminary and throughout the years, I was taught that “Someday, science
will find proof for the Book of Mormon," and so I put it on a shelf and
waited. However, as science progressed, my dissonance grew. After
watching a dozen archaeology shows on PBS where nothing in the Book of
Mormon was ever mentioned, I called a faithful BYU science professor and
asked if there was any archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon,
and how did he handle the dissonance between science and religion? <br />
<br />
I
could tell by his carefully worded responses that he was no longer a
believer.<br />
<br />
That started my reading frenzy through about 100 science and religion
books in about 6 months. It became undeniably clear that science proved
the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham to be fakes. After I was
grounded in science, then I started with real church history. I read
about the multiple contradictory versions of the First Vision, and
Joseph’s face-in-the-hat translation method.<br />
<br />
The final straw was reading
about Joseph Smith’s marrying a 14 year old, and his polyandry with
married women. After reading the heart-rending story of Zina and Henry
Jacobs, I was in tears.<br />
<br />
Then came the rage over being deceived my whole life; I knew the
church was a fraud, and there was nothing left of my testimony. I
continued to research all the little details for eight years, both
online and in books, until my family situation made it possible to
resign. I so regret my time, energy, youth, and much tithing that were
wasted on a lie, but my biggest regret is that I raised my children in
the church. Some of my adult children see the fraud, but not all of them
will, and there are many damaged familial relationships.<br />
<br />
Since many people have told me that my resignation letter has been
concise and helpful for them, I’m including it with a few minor
improvements. <b>Everyone has my permission to copy and use it to suit
their own needs, as I’m happy to be of help.</b><br />
<br />
Good luck to us all on our
journeys!<br />
<br />
<div align="right">
November 21, 2006</div>
Bishop *****<br />
Address, Orem, Utah<br />
<br />
Re: Resignation from membership of Dianne Chryst Ormond, female, birthdate November *****, Address<br />
<br />
<br />
Dear Bishop,<br />
This is my formal written resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints, effective November 21, 2006. I resign according
to legal precedents established in <i>Guinn V the Church of Christ of Collinsville</i> and <i>Norman Hancock Lawsuit </i>against
the LDS Church.<br />
<br />
I understand that resigning cancels the effects of
baptism and suspends temple sealings and blessings, but since I have
determined that the foundations of the LDS church are false, there are
no eternal consequences to this action. After years of careful
consideration, my decision is firm and unalterable. Please forward
without delay the “Report of Administrative Action” to President *****,
and as specified in the Church Handbook of Instructions, please notify
me that it has been done.<br />
<br />
As is my legal right, I request that the 30
day waiting period be waived, and request the paperwork be submitted
promptly to church headquarters. I will verify with Greg Dodge at SLC
Member Records.<br />
<br />
Where required to list on the form “reason for leaving,” please
indicate “at member’s request as she is not a believer.” I insist that
my records show the only reason my name has been removed is that I
requested it to be so, and insist the word excommunication or any other
derogatory word not be used as there is no basis.<br />
<br />
I emphasize that my
decision is not the result of sin, or taking offence, or any other
stereotypical justification, but simply that the church is not what it
claims to be, and all evidence falsifies the church.<br />
<br />
The church is good
at instilling ethics and values, so it is disturbing when it doesn’t
follow its own teachings on honesty. After eight years of intensive
research and documentation of all sides, I choose to no longer belong to
an organization that deceives its members.<br />
<ul>
<li>Yes, I’ve read the apologetics (defenses) of FARMS, FAIR, Meridian,
Daniel Peterson, John Sorenson, Jeff Lindsay, Kerry Shirts, Bill
Hamilton, John Pratt, Scott Woodward, John Tvedtnes, Matthew Roper,
Jeffrey Meldrum, Trent Stephens, Hugh Nibley <a href="http://lds-mormon.com/nibley1.shtml">http://lds-mormon.com/nibley1.shtml</a> and many others, as well as Limited Geography Theory, two Cumorahs, Bat Creek Stone, NHM, chiamus, word printing, etc.<br />
I have even double-checked many of their sources, read the books they
referenced, and written to scientists they quoted. In every case I
checked, the evidence was non-existent or twisted and distorted. Why are
there only disingenuous obfuscations that strain credulity? I could
overlook if there were just a few of the problems mentioned below, but
with all the issues together, the picture becomes overwhelmingly clear. A
side benefit is that all the dissonance between science and religion
has melted.</li>
<li>Since outside information is more credible and accurate, I know now
that efforts to steer me away were to hide sanitized and revisionist
history. Being told not to read something should have been my first
clue.</li>
<li>Multiple social science studies have demonstrated that once
indoctrinated into a set of beliefs, only 5% are able to break free of
that indoctrination. For that 5% open to examining the foundations of
their religion, I ask the following questions for which documentation is
easily obtained on the internet from hundreds of sources. A gentle and
balanced starting place is here: <a href="http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html">http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html</a></li>
<li>Since the <i>Book of Abraham</i> is a fake translation of common
Egyptian funeral papyri dated centuries after the time of Abraham, why
does the church hide this fact from its members and continue to claim
that the book is of divine origin when it has been known otherwise since
1966 when the papyri were found at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in
New York City? ‘Catalyst for inspiration’ and Hugh Nibley’s Sen-sen
defense are not supported by the evidence. <a href="http://www.irr.org/MIT/Books/BHOH/bhohintr.html">http://www.irr.org/MIT/Books/BHOH/bhohintr.html</a></li>
<li>When I was a missionary, I taught that Joseph Smith was visited by
God and Jesus. Now I learn there are at least three additional
contradictory Smith versions of the First Vision where only one angel
appeared, or only the Lord appeared, or many angels appeared. If I were
visited by Deity, it would make such an impression that I would remember
by whom and how many. If God and Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and
told him none of the churches were true and to join none of them, why
did he join the Methodists? After Alvin’s death in 1823, why did Joseph
pray, “if a supreme being existed” since he would already know? Why does
the church teach a religious revival started in 1820, when it was
actually 1824? Why is there no evidence of Smith’s ‘persecution’ in
1820? <a href="http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_questions.htm">http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_questions.htm</a><br />
Why was Angel Moroni called Angel Nephi by Joseph Smith and his mother
Lucy? If I’d been visited by an angel, I think I’d get the name right. <a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims1.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims1.htm</a></li>
<li>Why did Smith marry and have sex with 11 women who were married to
other men at the same time, some of whom he sent away on missions before
marrying their wives? Why did he marry young teenagers, including 14
year old Helen Mar Kimball, who had both parents and didn’t want to be
married?<a href="http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insacred.htm">http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insacred.htm</a> Most of these are documented on the church’s own genealogy website at: <a href="http://www.familysearch.org/">http://www.familysearch.org</a> (enter
Joseph Smith, 1805 birth). Why did Smith practice polygamy in secret
for 10 years before the D&C 132 ‘revelation’ which was to get Emma
off his back?<a href="http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm">http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm</a> Why
did Joseph marry Fanny Alger in 1833 when the restoration of sealing
power by Elijah didn’t happen until 1836? In Europe, why did John Taylor
say accusations of polygamy were lies when he already had multiple
wives back in the USA?<a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech9c.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech9c.htm</a><br />
Why did the church teach me that Smith was tarred-and-feathered by
anti-Mormons because Satan was persecuting him, when the reality was
they were Mormons avenging their young sister towards whom Smith had
made sexual advances, and Dr. Dennison was brought along for castration?<a href="http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_joesephsmith_section2.html">http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_joesephsmith_section2.html</a> ‘Why LDS Members Tried To Castrate Joseph Smith In 1832′</li>
</ul>
Why did the church teach me that polygamy was for the support of
widows and surplus single women, when there was actually a shortage of
women? <a href="http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/utah_census.htm">http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/utah_census.htm</a> Then
why didn’t Smith provide support for his 33+ wives? Why did General
Authorities keep sealing new polygamous marriages for at least 16 years
after Wilford Woodruff’s Manifesto?<a href="http://www.xmission.com/~country/chngwrld/chap9c.htm">http://www.xmission.com/~country/chngwrld/chap9c.htm</a><br />
<ul>
<li>For restoration, why would God choose a man who was a money-digger,
glass-looker, treasure-seeker, and was convicted as such in court in
1826? “He was only human,” but why didn’t God at least choose an
honorable man? <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/ny_js.htm">http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/ny_js.htm</a> and<a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech4.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech4.htm</a></li>
<li>Since I searched extensively, why couldn’t I find any science supporting <i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon?</i> Why
is there no Israelite DNA evidence of Lamanites? I’ve studied the weak
apologetics of founder effect, genetic drift, swamping, and the
apologist articles here: <a href="http://lds.org/newsroom/mistakes/0,15331,3885-1-18078,00.html">http://lds.org/newsroom/mistakes/0,15331,3885-1-18078,00.html</a>,
but the fact remains that there is no Israelite DNA, only excuses for
the lack thereof. Where are the Lamanites, and what happened to BYU’s
‘Lamanite Generation’? Why does the DNA, morphology, anthropology, and
archaeology all point back to Siberia?<a href="http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon440.htm">http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon440.htm</a><a href="http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp">http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp</a> and<a href="http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/exp_e/index.php/magazine/feature_article/2004/09/22">http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/feature_article/2004/09/22</a></li>
</ul>
We have physical evidence of Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Olmecs, Toltecs,
Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Norse in Greenland, and hundreds of other
civilizations. Where is any evidence of the civilizations of millions of
people in<i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon</i>? As far as “someday
science will find,” science has expanded exponentially, especially with
ground-penetrating radar and aerial surveillance, but the increasing
finds of science all contradict <i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon</i>.<br />
In lake sediment cores, where are the durable pollen grains of wheat,
barley, figs, grapes, or flax, or evidence of these plants in middens?
Where is the evidence of metallurgy, steel swords or slag heaps, or
coins and silk, chariots and wheels, or horses, elephants, asses, goats,
sheep, pigs, and cows? Why is there impossible population growth in <i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon?</i> <a href="http://josephlied.com/population.html">http://josephlied.com/population.html</a>
Where is the geologic evidence of a global Noachian flood, or geologic
or dendroclimatology evidence of the physical upheavals in 3<sup>rd</sup> Nephi? <a href="http://www.irr.org/mit/bomarch2.html">http://www.irr.org/mit/bomarch2.html</a> and <a href="http://www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html">http://www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html</a><br />
Why is there no linguistic evidence of ancient Hebrew or Reformed
Egyptian? Since languages have evolved for tens of thousands of years,
why did the Jaredites come from the Tower of Babel which never existed?
Jaredite barges are not functional reality. <a href="http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely_Babel_WTJ.pdf" title="http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely_Babel_WTJ.pdf">http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/01-Genesis/Text/Articles-Books/Seely_Babel_WTJ.pdf</a> and <a href="http://home.teleport.com/~packham/ships.htm">http://home.teleport.com/~packham/ships.htm</a><br />
Why are there hundreds of anachronisms? Why does <i>The Book of Mormon</i> quote Isaiah before Isaiah was written? Why does it mention the <i>Bible</i> a millennia before the <i>Bible</i> even existed? Why has <i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon</i>preserved
the errors in the King James translation such as ‘virgin’ for ‘young
woman’? Why is ‘Christ’ used when it is a Greek word, not the Israelite
word Messiah?<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html</a><br />
Besides there being no evidence for things mentioned in <i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon</i>,
why does the book not mention things that really did exist in
Mesoamerica, such as yams, beans, squash, llamas, sloths, jaguars, and
monkeys? I went to a museum in Lima, Peru, and there were thousands of
artifacts of jaguars, monkeys, and llamas, but not a single horse, cow,
elephant, or sheep!<br />
Why are core doctrines such as three degrees of glory, pre-existence,
eternal family sealings, and baptisms for the dead not included in this
“most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion”?<br />
<i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon</i> is a work of fiction with 19<sup>th</sup> century
milieu stamped all over it. ”There’s a difference between faith in an
area where the evidence is lacking, and denial in an area where the
evidence is copious but against you.” -Baura <a href="http://lds-mormon.com/bomquest.shtml">http://lds-mormon.com/bomquest.shtml</a><br />
<ul>
<li>Why was I taught Smith ‘translated’ from the gold plates when the
reality is that he had his face in a hat and never used the plates? <a href="http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html">http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html</a> Why did the witnesses only see the plates with their ‘spiritual eyes’? <a href="http://www.irr.org/mit/bomwit1.html">http://www.irr.org/mit/bomwit1.html</a> Why did Smith use a Seer Stone instead of the Urim and Thummin? <a href="http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm">http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm</a></li>
<li>Regarding Charles Anthon, why didn’t I learn that he called the characters a hoax and a scheme?<a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/anthon.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/anthon.htm</a></li>
<li>Why were priesthood restoration accounts created retroactively? Why
did the priesthood need to be restored by Peter, James, and John when
the Three Nephites had it?<a href="http://signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insider%27s.html#chap7">http://signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insider’s.html#chap7</a></li>
<li>Why did Smith start a ‘translation’ of the fraudulent Kinderhook plates?<a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/kinderhookplates.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/kinderhookplates.htm</a></li>
<li>Why did Smith smoke and drink after giving the Word of Wisdom? Why
did he have a bar in his own home? Why did he copy the teachings of the
Kirtland Temperance Society? Why didn’t he include in the Word of Wisdom
the simple instruction to boil water to prevent all the deaths from
cholera and dysentery?<a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech18.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech18.htm</a></li>
<li>Why did Smith make so many erroneous “prophecies” such as selling the sacred <i>Book of Mormon</i> copyright in Canada? Why was ‘war starting in South Carolina’ common knowledge, and didn’t refer to the Civil War?<a href="http://www.i4m.com/think/history/sell_BOM_copyright.htm">http://www.i4m.com/think/history/sell_BOM_copyright.htm</a> and<a href="http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prophet.htm">http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prophet.htm</a></li>
<li>Why was I taught about ‘milk strippings’ as a warning over trivial
things, when the reality is that story was spread decades later by
George A. Smith, and that Thomas B. Marsh actually left due to Mormon
plundering of Gentiles’ property? <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/msg/9d864ad0a6177ac3">http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/msg/9d864ad0a6177ac3</a></li>
<li>Why was I never taught about the Mountain Meadows Massacre or that
it was connected to the blood atonement covenant in the temple and the
killing of Parley P. Pratt for stealing another man’s wife and children
to add to his polygamy? <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_mass.htm">http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_mass.htm</a> and <a href="http://www.aml-online.org/reviews/b/B200242.html">http://www.aml-online.org/reviews/b/B200242.html</a></li>
<li>Why did I never hear that Prophet Brigham Young preached Adam is
God, Blood Atonement, Slavery, or that he petitioned to get the Mormon
Battalion, rather than it being conscripted as I was taught? Why does
the church teach in the lesson manual that Brigham only had one wife and
hides his 55 wives? <a href="http://lds-mormon.com/byoung.shtml">http://lds-mormon.com/byoung.shtml</a>, <a href="http://www.irr.org/MIT/byadamgd.html">http://www.irr.org/MIT/byadamgd.html</a>, and<a href="http://www.zaksite.co.uk/atozelph/racism.htm">http://www.zaksite.co.uk/atozelph/racism.htm</a> Why did Smith and Young say six-foot people lived on the moon and dressed like Quakers? <a href="http://www.watchman.org/lds/moonmen.htm">http://www.watchman.org/lds/moonmen.htm</a></li>
<li>Why was the temple ceremony plagiarized from Masonry weeks after
Smith became a Mason, and is not what was practiced in Solomon’s
temple? <a href="http://www.mormonismi.info/jamesdavid/masendow.htm">http://www.mormonismi.info/jamesdavid/masendow.htm</a><a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm</a> and<a href="http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/duncans_ritual/table_of_contents.htm">http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/duncans_ritual/table_of_contents.htm</a> Since
Smith taught that temple covenants and ordinances are eternal and
unchangeable, why have they been changed multiple times, and at least
twice in my lifetime, including removal of the death oaths in 1990? Why
were men sealed to men?<a href="http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_changes.htm">http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_changes.htm</a> and <a href="http://www.lds-mormon.com/whytemplechanges.shtml">http://www.lds-mormon.com/whytemplechanges.shtml</a> Why does this family-oriented church split families by excluding from temple weddings, which no other church does?</li>
<li>Why did the church teach me about the martyrdom as “a lamb to the
slaughter,” but not the fact that Smith had a smuggled revolver and
fired six shots into the crowd, and Hyrum had a smuggled pistol? Why was
I not taught that Smith was rightfully arrested for the destruction of
personal property including the Expositor, which was going to expose his
polygamy/polyandry about which he had repeatedly lied and denied? Why
was I not taught that Sidney Rigdon was the first to mention “war of
extermination” in a speech, and not the ‘gentiles’? <a href="http://lds-mormon.com/tmpc.shtml">http://lds-mormon.com/tmpc.shtml</a> and History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 34, p. 618.</li>
<li>Since Joseph’s <i>13 Articles of Faith</i> state that we believe
in “obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law,” why didn’t he? Why did
he contravene the law with his illegal marriages, counterfeit money, and
illegal Kirtland Bank that wiped out the life savings of those who
believed Smith’s prophecies about it?<a href="http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithsbank.htm">http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/josephsmithsbank.htm</a> Why didn’t I hear about the Danites and the Council of 50? <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/msg/798763798680fb17">http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.mormon/msg/798763798680fb17</a> and<a href="http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/lying.html">http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/lying.html</a></li>
<li>Why does the church continue to claim it is the fastest growing
religion when statistics say otherwise, and the internet is blocking its
growth? <a href="http://home.teleport.com/~packham/growth.htm">http://home.teleport.com/~packham/growth.htm</a></li>
<li>Why does the current film <i>Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration</i> give
false impressions? i.e. regarding healings, Smith’s happy monogamous
marriage, parental encouragement of Emma’s marriage when the reality is
they were furious at the elopement and that Joseph had stolen her away?<a href="http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/01-EmmaHale.htm">http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/01-EmmaHale.htm</a></li>
<li>Regarding our core belief and Snow’s couplet “As man is, God once
was. As God is, man may become,” why did President Gordon B. Hinckley
say that “I don’t know that we teach it…”?<a href="http://home.teleport.com/~packham/gbh-god.htm">http://home.teleport.com/~packham/gbh-god.htm</a> Why
did Hinckley say polygamy is “not doctrinal” when it is in D&C 132,
will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom, and is currently practiced
in temple sealings?<a href="http://lds-mormon.com/lkl_00.shtml">http://lds-mormon.com/lkl_00.shtml</a> Before
two people were killed, why didn’t Hinckley, Kimball, and other church
leaders receive revelation and be able to discern that Mark Hofmann’s
documents were forgeries that they were buying to hide in the Church
vault? What has Hinckley prophesied or revealed as ‘prophet, seer, and
revelator’? <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hof1.htm">http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/hof1.htm</a></li>
<li>Why are women taught to be subservient and are less valued? Why did
the church oppose the ERA? In our stake, YM have four times the budget
as YW. There are yearly father-son sleepovers, but women were banned
from sleepovers after one activity. Girls camp is once a year and always
at the same place, while Scouts have multiple camps at multiple distant
places. Why are there church boy scouts, but not girl scouts? Why ask
men before giving a calling to the wife, but not ask women before giving
a calling to the husband? Why can’t women have more leadership callings
such as financial clerk or Sunday School president? I remember when
women were finally allowed to give prayers in Sacrament Meeting in 1978.
Thankfully, multiple “women obey your husbands” were taken out of the
temple ceremony in 1990.<a href="http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1041#more-1041">http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1041#more-1041</a> and<a href="http://www.i4m.com/think/comments/mormon_women.htm">http://www.i4m.com/think/comments/mormon_women.htm</a></li>
<li>There is so much more, but I’ll stop now. <a href="http://home.teleport.com/~packham/101.htm">http://home.teleport.com/~packham/101.htm</a>,<a href="http://www.realmormonhistory.com/">http://www.realmormonhistory.com/</a> and <a href="http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no107.htm">http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no107.htm</a></li>
<li>Other than “feelings,” what evidence is there the church is what it
claims to be? Feelings are not a reliable test of truth, as anyone knows
whose feelings have turned out to be wrong, such as feeling good about
an investment which failed or a marriage that ended. If feelings equal
truth, then Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism, and all other faiths are also
the one true religion because their members also have a witness.
Regarding faith, belief, witness, prayer, testimony, burning in the
bosom, and other such feelings, many get those same inspirational
feelings watching “Phantom of the Opera” or “Les Mis.” Does that mean
they are true? Many get bad feelings learning about the Holocaust. Does
that mean the Holocaust isn’t true? Most spiritual experiences can be
scientifically explained within the brain. <a href="http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html">http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html</a><a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/vis_brain.htm">http://www.religioustolerance.org/vis_brain.htm</a> and<a href="http://www.dreamsnightmares.com/luciddreaming.html">http://www.dreamsnightmares.com/luciddreaming.html</a></li>
</ul>
Faith cannot be sustained on falsehoods and deception. Faith is not
sufficient when all tangible evidence contradicts the church. “Faith, as
well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not
fiction–faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.” –Thomas Edison<br />
My testimony is based on evidence, facts, historical research, and
feelings, and I know that the church is not true, Joseph Smith was not a
prophet, and <i>The</i> <i>Book of Mormon </i>is not the word of God.<a href="http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dawkins2.html">http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dawkins2.html</a><br />
<ul>
<li>There are hundreds more books to suggest, but these are excellent for consolidated reading:</li>
</ul>
- Church history- <i>An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins</i> by Grant Palmer (active Mormon, Institute Director)<br />
- Science- <i>Farewell to Eden, Coming to Terms With Mormonism and Science</i> by Duwayne Anderson (resigned Mormon, scientist)<br />
- Polygamy/polyandry- <i>In Sacred Loneliness</i> by Todd Compton (active Mormon, historian)<br />
- Spiritual experiences/how the brain works- <i>Don’t Believe Everything You Think</i> by Thomas E. Kida<br />
Sincerely,<br />
Dianne Chryst Ormond<br />
dormond22@hotmail.com<br />
<i><a href="http://mormonthink.com/" rel="nofollow">http://MormonThink.com</a></i><br />
Address, Orem, UtahWriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-76028491389109018532013-01-12T13:11:00.003-07:002013-01-12T13:11:22.889-07:00Real shit.<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BPpT08oH-Z8/UPG26sEWlNI/AAAAAAAALIY/pns_UzY8NjM/s1600/734267_10151362027960155_376106161_n.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="409" src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BPpT08oH-Z8/UPG26sEWlNI/AAAAAAAALIY/pns_UzY8NjM/s640/734267_10151362027960155_376106161_n.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h6nGbfaYhl8/UPG28WNeCqI/AAAAAAAALIg/RecDc8LwKpA/s1600/293688_10151350365725155_305715216_n.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="474" src="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h6nGbfaYhl8/UPG28WNeCqI/AAAAAAAALIg/RecDc8LwKpA/s640/293688_10151350365725155_305715216_n.jpg" width="640" /></a></div>
<br />WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6498787.post-75285382430794928092012-12-18T11:21:00.001-07:002012-12-18T11:21:29.076-07:00Again with the INSULTS: A "christian" attempts to defend his religion but exposes his ignorance instead<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:WordDocument>
<w:View>Normal</w:View>
<w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>
<w:PunctuationKerning/>
<w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>
<w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>
<w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>
<w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>
<w:Compatibility>
<w:BreakWrappedTables/>
<w:SnapToGridInCell/>
<w:WrapTextWithPunct/>
<w:UseAsianBreakRules/>
<w:DontGrowAutofit/>
</w:Compatibility>
<w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>
</w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]--><br />
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">
</w:LatentStyles>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><img src="//img2.blogblog.com/img/video_object.png" style="background-color: #b2b2b2; " class="BLOGGER-object-element tr_noresize tr_placeholder" id="ieooui" data-original-id="ieooui" />
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]>
<style>
/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-parent:"";
mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;
mso-para-margin:0cm;
mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-ansi-language:#0400;
mso-fareast-language:#0400;
mso-bidi-language:#0400;}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-margin-top-alt: auto;">
The
following conversation resulted from this post (set off here) and highlights the absolute
intractability of "believers," who operate without fact or evidence
and who, when provided with ample evidence that their stance is flawed and
ridiculous, resort to avoidance, straw man arguments, attacks, insults and to
revising history as means to protect the "god" for which they have
not a shred of evidence. My comments are marked "WW," as in
WriterWriter.<br />
<br />
AS ALWAYS, as much as I can, I have removed the names of the guilty here in
order they be protected from exposure via their own stupidity. </div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">COLUMBINE STUDENT'S FATHER 12 YEARS LATER125</span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday,
Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School
shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House
Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during
this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.</span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it
received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every
politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert!
These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and
deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in
the wilderness... The following is a portion of the transcript:</span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the
hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of
violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths
of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in
vain. Their blood cries out for answers.</span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel
out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the
NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason
for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how
quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a
member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to
represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible
for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be
defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be
their strongest opponent </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a
spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies!
Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the
pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights
ago that expresses my feelings best.</span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
Your laws ignore our deepest needs; your words are empty air. </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">You've stripped away our heritage, you've outlawed simple
prayer. </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">Now gunshots fill our classrooms, and precious children die. </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">You seek for answers everywhere, and ask the question
"Why?" </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">You regulate restrictive laws, through legislative creed. </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need!</span>
</i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;">"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of
body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our
make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in
and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational
systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as
theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a
nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to
hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy
occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They
immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away
our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric
and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws
can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real
villain lies within our own hearts. </span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 27.0pt; margin-right: 29.2pt; margin-top: 0cm; text-align: justify;">
<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: "Century Gothic"; font-size: 9.0pt;"><br />
"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his
two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in
school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every
young person in America ,
and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School
prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by
those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred
disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate
with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to
you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the
first stone! <br />
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will
not allow that to happen!" <br />
- Darrell Scott</span></i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
My<span class="uficommentbody"> usual snark aside, I honestly
don't get this. Of all first world nations on earth, the US is BY FAR the most
religious and it also has by BY FAR the highest murder rate. In particular the
highest rate of gun violence. Gun regulation is definitely a problem for the US. So is the
selfish attitude towards any and all social costs such as health care including
mental health care? This is exemplified by the current Republican Party and
their general attitude of "I got mine, F** you". This is the party of
Social Conservatives and the Christian right. In other words, living by the
actual principles would be of use. Forcing everyone in society to deal with
bible study in public (whether they are Christian or not) will not be of use.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">"I like your Christ; I do
not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Mahatma Gandhi</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">It is a despicable thing to say,
that a killer took these children because "god" is not allowed in
schools. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Such an allegation blames the victims for being in
such a place; it blames legislators for making schools places of equality -
because not everyone believes the same thing, the same version of the thing or
the thing at all; and in north America, we are guaranteed equality in our
schools and courts regardless of belief or not.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">But worse, such an odious suggestion ignores that
many of these children come from christian families; is this 'god' so
capricious that the second people leave their "christian" homes, they
are fair game?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">And worse yet, such an appalling sentiment gives
free ride to a "god" alleged to have created all things - humans,
guns and mental illness included; to be all powerful, and so able to stop such
events; all-knowing and so having foreknowledge that this young man would have
significant mental illness, an illness 'created' by such a 'god;' that his
mother would buy guns and train herself (to no avail) and her son to use them;
and this "god" would have known that this sick young man would use
the guns to kill those 27 people but did nothing at all. Is this
"god" powerless? Vengeful? Impotent? Malicious?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">THIS is the "god" this man wishes to have
brought back into the very schools; his "god" so malfeasant and
malevolent that it will refuse to acknowledge, let alone act on its own
creations to stop them from murdering children?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">This man is not thinking.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Also for the record, the
Republican party is the party of hate: they support guns - any and all; they
support ONE religion and vilify and exclude all others; hate is ensconced in
their doctrines; hate for women who think; hate for people who love who they
wish; hate for those whose biology gives them darker-pigmented skin; hate for
those whose first language is anything other than what passes for English in
the US - particularly if that language is Spanish. And yet this party, that
receives a significant part of its funding through the NRA, is, by their own
description, the most "christian."</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">What is shocking in the whole affair is the will of
people to cling to things that are demonstrably false and demonstrably
dangerous. When you ball those up and call those things "Politics,"
your country is doomed.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK</b> (the main
offender here):</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Wow, such angry people! The
entire point this man seeks to make is that when you diminish society's
deference to God, what ever God that may be, narcissism (sic) inevitably fills
the void and carnage ensues. (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">This is the first of this person's many insults: that
those who require evidence for extraordinary claims are narcissists - except he
doesn't understand that word or what it actually refers to...</span>)</i></span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Ultimately, like Emilie Parker's dad said the day
after the shooting, God gives us all free agency and can not take it away. The
gunman chose what he would do with his agency; we all have to decide what we do
with ours.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">CM:</b> <span style="color: #ff6600;">(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">who will shortly
out herself as a very, very uneducated "christian." Watch for it</i></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">)</i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">God does not forcibly make
anybody believe in Him. He freely offers his gift of grace to everybody.
Unfortunately, many people choose not to accept it and they use their free will
to sin. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">This is why there are horrible
tragedies such as this in the world (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">yes, "Virginia,"
except you ignore the basis for those tragedies...</span>)</i> These tragedies
hurt God as much and maybe more than they hurt us (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">oh fuck. What?).</i></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>God does not want these types of things to
happen and therefore continues to offer us His peace and love (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">really??? Well
you "god" is sure taking its sweet-ass time to y'know, step in...</span>)</i>.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">With regards to politics, there
are many more things at play than just a "religious" party and
"non-religious". No people are perfect and therefore there will never
be a perfect church, or Christian. The beauty is that God loves us even in our
unperfectness (sp??). All we have to do is accept Him (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">really? So, in the case of this shooter -
and his momma, who bought the guns and taught him to use them, and who was a
christian, acceptance stopped this crime how, exactly??</span>)</i>.</span></div>
<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 12.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-CA; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-CA;"><br clear="all" style="page-break-before: always;" />
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">CM, it is coercion to say
"you have a choice, but if you make a choice I don't like, you'll burn
forever."</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Either you believe in me and do what I say or I kill
you is NOT grace and it is NOT choice. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Many of the 'horrible tragedies to which you refer
are committed in the name of "god," and I include here the thousands
of children that are ejected from their communities due to some christian adult
saying the child is "possessed" (Nigeria; and the rescuing
organisation is SECULAR, not christian); I include the thousands upon thousands
of people who are killed because of their sexuality, and the many thousands
more who are rejected, refused rights, refused equality because their christian
detractors pick a single Levitican law - and utterly ignore the other 18 or so
in the same book - by which to abuse these people; I refer here to the millennia
of women whose rights have been and still are denied thanks to tribal
patriarchy in the christian bible. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Secondly, WHICH god are you referring to here?</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">What is your evidence for your choice</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Please show how your evidence does not ALSO prove
all other (approximately 5000) gods</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Please explain why you do not believe in any of the
other 4999</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Hateful? Really? I'm simply
saying that the premise is patently false. My point is that other first world
nations (Canada, Australia, Western Europe) are much less
religious than the US
and have drastically lower murder rates. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">So clearly, reducing the
influence of religion does not have the impact that he (and you) claim. Have
your faith. Enjoy it, take comfort from it. I have no issue with that at all. I
do however take issue with the idea that me or my children should be forced to
participate in your faith. I send my children to public school to get an
education, not to be exposed to religion. If you want religion to be a part of
your child's education, great. There are options available to you. Don't take
away my options.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Point one: Exactly</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Statistically, in the US, the states with the highest
rates of religiosity also have the highest rates of crime, incarceration and
gun deaths. They also have the lowest rates for education - particularly
completed education.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Point two: Canada
is a SECULAR society, as is the US.
People in those SECULAR societies have the right to practice - or not - any
religion, or not, they wish. People in those societies ALSO have the right to
be free from having religion of any kind force-fed to them AND to be free from
discrimination - which, it seems, comes most often from the religious. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Religious people do not know their own texts. In
particular, christians are exhorted by their god to "go into your closet
to pray," and not make loud, public demonstrations of faith. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Religion is a private and personal thing. Have it,
but don't force it down anyone else's throat or bring it into their schools,
courts, organisations.</span><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">CM:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">I'm talking about Jesus, God and
Holy Spirit. I did a study on this once, but I forget the exact details (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">SEE??? These
people do NOT have even a working knowledge of their faith or its tenets</span>),</i>
so I have to do a little research. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">According to my Bible's footnotes
(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">its
FOOTNOTES???</span>)</i>, the verses in the Bible referring to Hell and burning
such as Matthew 5:22 refer to "an area of perpetually burning city dump in
a deep ravine outside Jerusalem
which became a figure for the final place of punishment". These verses
have been taken literally but I think there is more to it than that. Because of
this, I believe the burning is an interpretation. I believe that not accepting
God means that one would live an afterlife separate from God because this is
what was chosen. In my view nothing could be worse. Faith is a gift, all one
has to do is decide if they will open it.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">MK, the gunman did NOT choose
free agency. He was a very, very ill young man and had been for his entire life.
To say that person was in any way in control of himself is again to blame a
victim.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">BEFORE YOU GO OFF HERE: I do NOT excuse him his
actions; however, that young man was not a regular person who had the capacity
for reason and who one day woke up, decided to shoot his mother in the head
four times, and then to calmly shuffle off to the local elementary school and
kill 26 other people. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Those are NOT the actions of someone who was in any
way able to make a choice like you're suggesting. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">And before you bring "god" into any of
this, first get your evidence in place and secondly, make sure your evidence
does not also prove all other "gods" and also pink unicorns, flying
spaghetti monsters and Thor.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">You have to establish "god" as an actual
fact before you can start ascribing all this carnage to your "all
mighty" who created that young man, his illness, the minerals and metals
that make guns, the brains with which they are made, and which god decided, in
his immense foreknowledge of everything and everyone to sit back and let 20
children be gunned down. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">It is, frankly, a disgusting attitude.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK:</b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">I don't know where you get your
ideas about Canada.
Our head of state is the Queen and also the head of the Anglican Church. Our
constitution proclaims we are a nation founded upon the supremacy of God. Our
national anthem is a hymn asking God to keep our land glorious and free. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">The problem addressed by Darrell Scott is not the
allowing of different religious choices but the imposition of Godless
secularism, what has become, through stealth, the "one true and only
permissible state religion". We are not reaping what religious people have
sown but the fruits that secularism has planted. Sadly, this whirlwind is
merciless.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">CM</b><span class="uficommentbody">:</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">WW, sorry I just saw the rest of
your questions. I'd be happy to explain some of these things, but I think it
would be WAY to long of a post. I can send you an email if you want (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">I haven't
accepted this offer as yet, although the reply would probably make for a pretty
excellent and satirical piece</span>)</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b><span class="uficommentbody"></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">CM, what is your evidence for
these "gods," and how does it not prove all others?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Sorry to tell you but there is no possibility
"jesus" was a real person. That character is a remake of more than 20
others with identical or near-identical pedigrees, all dating from much prior
to "jesus." Look up Horus.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Better yet, go here and watch the first 30 minutes:</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody"><a href="http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/" target="_blank">www.zeitgeistmovie.com</a></span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Otherwise, given that one cannot possibly believe
any "god" has DNA or genes, nor can any "spirit" have such
things, as those things are decidedly human biology, and given that biology, it
is not possible for the very anglo-saxon-named "Mary" (for whom there
is absolutely no evidence or history for) could have conceived a child without
the help of a human male. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">However, IF one can suspend reality to that point
and assume a "spirit" did it, the simple fact of no DNA/genes would
necessarily mean any child produced that way would be female. As such the story
of "jesus" cannot be true. If said "spirit" had DNA/genes,
then there is no "virgin" in this story.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Add to that there is not a single eye-witness of
such a person - despite the 40 actively writing historians of the time. You
would think that a person who was making such waves in society would be noted
by historians of the time, but not a single note was made - not even in
passing. The only mentions within a century of the alleged life of that person
are made by men who were not alive at the time - meaning not eye-witnesses. The
gospels were all written much later, the earliest, 60 years later, and NONE of
them agree; in fact two of them make no mention at all of Mary or of any
"virgin" birth. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">The most oft-quoted is Josephus, who was not alive
at the time and who, as a historian writing the history of JEWISH belief, was
hardly likely to acknowledge the existence of the "messiah" because
such an acknowledgement would have effectively terminated Judaism; as you
surely know, Jewish people are still waiting for the FIRST coming.... there are
four others who are referenced as having noted "jesus," but none of
those was alive at the time either and none makes any more mention than "I
heard this thing about this guy." </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">As for "god," it/he/she is an angry,
jealous and fickle being, who can be stopped by iron chariots (that is
biblical) and by state legislation if the odious T-shirt that is circulating is
to be believed.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK</b>, the
Canadian constitution makes it very, very clear this is a SECULAR nation in
which one has the right to have a religion or not and in neither case be
persecuted.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">To you the same challenges: WHICH "god"
are you referring to? Give evidence for this "god" that does not also
support all other gods. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Explain why you do NOT believe in any (or all) of
Thor, Zeus, Mithras, or any of the other 4999 or so "gods" that have
appeared in human history.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Once you can explain why you do not believe in any
of those "gods" you will understand why and how one can not believe
in ANY; the missing ingredient for ALL is evidence (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">At NO point does this idiot even attempt to
answer any of these questions; in fact, this idiot avoids these questions with
a vengeance - and I do mean vengefully</span>)</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">The Queen is our head of state
because of inertia and tradition. Secularism has grown because we are an
increasingly multi-cultural, multi-religious nation. This includes people like
me who do not subscribe to any religion or faith. I can tell you that I live my
life to a stricter moral code than many so called "Christians" that I
meet, and that I know more about their religions than they do. I require
neither the "stick" of hell or "carrot" of heaven in order
to live this way. So understand that about me when I say that blaming
secularism, and by extension secular people such as myself for the ills of
society is offensive, and more to the point it is wrong.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">^Exactly. Well said, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT</b>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Just for fun, here's a list
(which is by no means exhaustive) of crimes - murders, rapes, etc. etc.
committed in the name of the christian god.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html" target="_blank">http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html</a></b></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK;</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
WW,<span class="uficommentbody"> I find it strange that you
demand such evidence of God (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">yes, I always ask for evidence when someone - an idiot in
this case - claims a thing exists</span>)</i> when you engage in such rampant
speculation about the gunman and his condition, devoid of evidence (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">this idiot seems
not to read any newspapers; had he, he would have come across the same
information I did about the young man - and his mother - in question</span>)</i>.
</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">The gunman's level of planning
clearly indicates a level of cognition that would allow him to choose not to
carry out his plan. The simple fact that he shot himself when police entered
the building showed a full understanding and comprehension of the consequences
of the events he set in motion. He made his choice using the agency God grants
us all and God, in His wisdom, will judge him for it (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">this idiot's position is not only wrong and
uninformed, it completely ignores the fact of the young man's long-term mental
illness and the realities of his life: his mother is a "prepper" and
an evangelical; divorced family, father distant but involved... link</span>: </i></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://goo.gl/WsvkZ">http://goo.gl/WsvkZ</a><br />
</b></span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I don't know why you are so obviously angry with
religion and religious people (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ah... that old argument. He won't give evidence but he'll
attack anyone who pushes against his statements. This is the usual tactic of
someone who has no argument</span>)</i>. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Before you blame all that is
wrong with America
on the religious you should ponder if their beliefs are there because they have
seen the effect of the irreligious on society. Don't forget that in Columbine
one of the gunmen asked a girl if she believed in God and then shot her dead
because she said yes.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">CM:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
WW, y<span class="uficommentbody">es I agree that many
horrible things have been done in the name of the Christian God, which is not
God's will (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">really?
Then why doesn't your all-powerful "god" step in and stop things that
are not its will? Hmmm???</span>)</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">It has to be noted that several
atrocities have happened with other religious entities as well as atheist
entities (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">No, my friend, there is not one
single incident that was done in the name of atheism)</i>. The goal of
Christianity is to love God and move towards becoming like Him. Nobody will be
like Him immediately and everyone will make mistakes along the way. You have to
admit that there are also SEVERAL things that have been done by Christians that
have helped many. For example, Mother Teresa for one (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">M<span style="color: #ff6600;">other Teresa made a job out of letting
people die. That woman capitalised on poverty, illness and death. She had the
world's powerful at her beck and call and was in possession of MILLIIONS of
dollars, with which she could easily have bought medicines and medical care but
she did not. She was evil</span>)</i>, as well as several Christian ministries
in Calgary such as the Dream Centre and Acadia Place (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">I didn't ask this person but what exactly
does either of these places do that atheists/humanists do not and cannot do?
That good can only be done by the religious is false, first of all but does not
bear out in reality, secondly</span>)</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">CM, people have done wonderful
and horrible things in the name of every faith. I would actually argue that
Mother Teresa was not who you think she was, but do not argue that some very
good things are done in the name of religion. I suspect the point <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW</b> was trying to make is that many
terrible things are also done in the name of Christianity, and it isn't
realistic to present only the good things.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">MK, there is ample evidence
emerging today about Adam Lanza and his mental health. </span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I did a quick search just now - but have read a
substantial number of articles today - and turned up more than 21 MILLION
results. Here is the link:</span><br />
<strong><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2Fh9eC9&h=vAQE8X_UFAQEzUuofxt8o3FENq3zVcneKdfwisKP61NCGzA&s=1" target="_blank">adam Lanza + mental health - Google Search</a></strong> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="caption"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca&h=iAQGeLrwZAQFn_OJoHogBZ1jmffecN56qSXYoZtcyHYSvYg&s=1" target="_blank">www.google.ca</a></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Last point: MK, if one asserts
the existence of something it is to them to PROVE or support that assertion. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">As an example, were I to tell you I can fly, the
first thing you would say is "prove it." </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">If you assert there is an invisible man who creates
all things, all the earth and everything in it (from Genesis), but stands back
and watches children he created being mowed down by a boy who he created who
had a mental illness he created, then you must prove it.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">As I said, I have an excellent knowledge of this
subject area, including the part pertaining to burden of proof; that rests with
you.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">CM:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">I did not always believe in God.
But, now I know there is a God because I have felt his power in my life. All I can
say is that faith is a gift; one just has to decide if they will open it, and
I'm glad I did (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">I
respond to this bullshit in a bit</span>)</i>.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Wow, Julie such radical militant
secularism (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ah...
the attempted insult. The terms "radical," "militant," and,
for this person, "secularism," are designed to diminish the intended
victim's credibility. However, this person doesn't understand the terms or
their definitions. He does, however, use them as an attack)</span></i>. <br />
<br />
Demanding I prove God exists but also saying you don't have to prove he doesn't
(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">yes, because
this person makes the claim! If one makes a claim for something, one must
establish that something actually exists</span></i>). Neither is provable. If
you understood the bible you would understand that faith is part of God's plan.
Who would defy God if it were certain he existed (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Um, exactly! As there is utterly no
evidence of any 'god' there is no reason NOT to "defy." However, just
to put a point on it, "defy" in this person's vernacular means
"live life NOT as a sheep"</span>)</i>?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">By their fruits you shall know them. Look at the
results of the prominent secular atheist philosophies. Marx, Lenin, Stalin,
Pot, Hitler (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">**NOT
an atheist</span></i>), Mao and all the rest. Collectively they have killed
more people than all other causes combined (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">NOT true; the christian wars, the inquisitions, the witch
burnings, the simple act of Rome establishing the political structure of 2000
years ago, have taken MANY more lives</span>)</i>. Kill the God who is over us
all and it becomes very easy to kill those whom you deem beneath you (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">what bullshit</span>).</i></span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Intellectually we could go on and on and on, but
this isn't intellectual, it's emotional (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Right. So again, no proof at all because this person has
just 'moved the goalposts;' I don't have to operate on an intellectual level;
this is all emotional</span>)</i>. Your pain is obvious, your anger seen by all
(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">This is also
a very common means of moving the goalposts; the writer here refuses to answer
the questions or provide evidence for his claims and resorts to attacking the
person asking the questions and questioning their emotions and motivations. It
is a fraudulent and frustrating tactic</span>)</i>. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">It blinds you to those things
sitting right in front of you (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">SUCH AS??? GIVE ME SOME EVIDENCE!</span>)</i> and denies
you the peace that you seek by rejecting the long standing traditions of your
family. I hope you find that peace but you won't do it here and you won't do it
without dealing with whatever caused you all that pain.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
CM,<span class="uficommentbody"> honestly say what you have in
your life that is NOT due to the other PEOPLE in your life. If you can cite one
thing where NO human was in any way involved... It is insulting to the people
around you - friends, family, teachers, doctors and nurses (if that applies)
and even strangers, to attribute the effects of their actions and goodness to
an invisible "man." It is the people - flesh and blood humans - who
make our lives good and our thanks and faith is more appropriately given to
them than some invisible 'man.'</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">MK, if you state a thing exists you must provide
evidence to support your statement. Whether you like that or not is immaterial.
You cannot make a statement and require someone else to prove you are right.
That is not how the burden of proof works. Besides, if you're so very sure,
provide evidence for what makes you sure. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Hitler was a devout Catholic. Devout. The entire
frontispiece to Mein Kampf is a dedication to god. Every SS officer and soldier
in the nazi regime wore a belt buckle inscribed with Gott mit uns - god with
us. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Hitler's atrocities were fully and openly committed
in the name of god for the good of catholicism and with the blessing of the
then pope and the vatican - which was the beneficiary of a outrageous amount of
wealth by virtue of killing the original owners, the vatican demanding poverty
and chastity only for those NOT inside its walls.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">The others you cite here may well have been secular,
atheists; who knows. They were, however, decidedly all psychopaths and, with
the exception of Hitler, did not commit atrocities in the name of anything
other than their own pursuit of power. I say it is a far worse thing to commit
atrocities in the name of whatever your particular god might be. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Otherwise, you may psychoanalyse me all you wish, my
friend, but you are STILL avoiding any offer to provide evidence or proof for
your god - that doesn't also prove all others; until you leave off doing that,
you may say whatever you wish about me personally, none of which in any way
proves the existence of your 'god' or any other. That is the nature of the
straw man argument; it is an intellectual side step that immediately exposes
the straw man as not having a basis for his claims and so trying to distract.
That is otherwise known as a shell game - you see those in non-religious
circuses quite often too. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">So MK:</span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">What is your evidence of this thing you are so
convinced exists?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">How can you, in good conscience, give that
malevolent being a free ride?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I realise that people who believe as you do must, at
all costs, and no matter how many hoops must be jumped, no matter how much
innate morality must be ignored, no matter how many holes in the stories there
are, absolutely ignore it all, override their innate intelligence AND resort to
insulting strangers, calling them mentally ill, suggesting they are in 'pain',
rather than taking a very public opportunity to provide evidence for your
claims and do EXACTLY what your bible exhorts you to do and CONVERT someone.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I hardly think making an enemy by insults and
castigations is the means by which you will do any of your 'god's' work: your
comments here do not entice me into your fold because I have been in that fold
and have grown up around people like you - those who revile anyone who truly
questions - who leaves the milk of childhood for the meat of maturity
(Corinthians 3;2). </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I will also say your fear is showing; fear of what
you know to be true being exposed. I had this fear and I too was a vocal,
dedicated christian who took it very personally when anyone would dare to
question the "truth." However, one cannot have a solid faith if one
is not willing to turn over the rocks - and turning over the rocks will expose
a truth you already know.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Sigh. MK this will be my last
post here. Julie's point about proof is simply the scientific method. <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Claims
require proof, including claims that there is a god</i></b>. This is not
something that can be proven, which is why it's called faith. The difficulty I
have with your positions is that you present your faith as fact (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">I love this guy</span>)</i>.
I understand that in your mind it is fact, but why is your Christian faith to
be taken as fact and not Islam, Hinduism, or any other faith (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Note: MK never
responds to this question</span>)</i>? As for the talking point about Atheists
being responsible for more murder than all other causes combined, it is old and
discredited and you would do yourself a favour to research it. For example Hitler
was Catholic and the Nazi Party platform explicitly endorsed and promoted
Christianity.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">Entry removed for irrelevance </i></b><br />
<br />
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">I have posted a rather long list
of atrocities committed in the name of the christian god (above) </span><br />
<span class="uficommentbody">There is NO list of atrocities committed in the name
of atheism. </span><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html" target="_blank">http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html</a></b></span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">There ARE atrocities committed by
atheists. There is NOT, however, any atrocity ever that was committed in the
name of atheism. Never. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">MK, here is that list again. PLEASE explain to me
WHERE your "god" was when all these things were going on. Please
explain why your loving god, who created all things including good AND EVIL,
NEVER steps in to stop the actions of the beings you claim your "god"
created (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">MK
never responds to any of this. People like this CAN'T respond because doing so
will explode their myth and I think they know it</span>)</i>. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Please explain why this "god" of yours is
endlessly invisible. ... except when it is pissed off and drowning the entire
world (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">the
Noah story</span>)</i>. Or suggesting the tribes kill the neighbouring tribes -
all the men, boys and married women but they can keep the virgins as spoils....
Or tell me why this lovely 'god' of yours thinks it a good punishment for
naughty children who call a man "baldie" to be torn apart and killed
by bears? Or, how about you explain to me how your "god" thinks his
followers will be so happy about bashing other tribes' babies against the rocks
to kill them? HMMM??? </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Oh... and before you go all "that's old
testament" on me, may I remind you of Matthew 5;18-19 and also Leviticus
is also old testament.... So, either you follow christ and adhere to all the
old laws that will not pass away until he returns, or you don't. If you're
wearing a shirt of mixed fabrics at the moment and you're eating any foods that
were grown in a field along side others - your basic mixed crop - you're in
trouble. Also, if that's your avatar, you cut your hair of the temples, which
is also a sin... and I suspect you may have, if you're married, share a bed
with a menstruating woman, the punishment for which is death.... </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">And exactly how did a 600 year-old drunk manage to
load all the world's animals (iguanas and penguins?) into a boat 1/3 the size
of the Titanic, load in all the specialised food they'd need - and keep it
fresh for a year - keep them from dying and killing each other, deal with all
the literal shit that would pile up on a daily basis, keep a wooden boat afloat
for a year and then put them all back where they belonged - with no grass or
prey left at all for them to eat and hope they'd survive a week, let alone
reproduce. #ridiculous. </span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">And I take it, as you're a
bible-believing christian who follows christ who says the rules are still in
play, that you're cool with selling your daughters off as slaves or, if not
that, forcing them to marry anyone who rapes them - and providing them a dowry
to go to that rapist? Also, how do you manage to keep slaves in modern times -
it's quite frowned on - and illegal, I'm sure - but your god's a fan - as long
as you don't beat them to death - at least not too often. And as for your kids
(if you have any) which edge of the city do you take them to to be stoned for
being unruly? </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Seriously, if that's the kind of morality you have -
y'know, the biblical kind - um.... no thanks.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<strong><a href="http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnotachristian.org%2Fchristianatrocities.html&h=WAQEaeadgAQGJBGHboybu5hZxEQxm5u7UTT6-DfqoxRUy9A&s=1" target="_blank">Christian Atrocities</a></strong> </div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">@CM, very good point. Adam Lanza
was extremely ill and had been most of his life. I understand his mother was
not only an evangelical, she was a survivalist; in that context, someone who is
profoundly mentally ill didn't have a chance. His mom gave him training to use
all those legally-acquired guns - two handguns and an automatic rifle - and a fourth
weapon in the car, I understand - for self-protection. I wonder if she believed
having a gun in the house would protect her... apparently she didn't know of or
care about the very high correlation between gun deaths an injuries in homes
where guns are present - and the very, very low incidence of an intruder being
scared off or shot when a gun is present; it's tough to get your safely-stored
guns out of storage in an invasion scenario... however, your mentally-ill son
who you've trained DOES know where the guns and ammo are and DOES know he's a
rotten sinner and headed for hell anyway, so who cares?</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Wow again, WW, if everyone
interpreted the bible the way you do you might have a point (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Yes, I would -
and people who have studied the bible DO interpret it that way</span></i>).
However, your interpretation is clear twisted towards no other end than
discrediting religion and is thus useless (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ah. I see. So, when I bring facts into the argument, this
person rejects them out of hand because they conflict with his carefully-constructed
but completely uninformed understanding of his religion. Got it</span></i>).
How hypocritical is it to interpret the word of God while denying his existence
(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">oh stupid
boy. I didn't deny. I said, "Where is the EVIDENCE for this thing you
claim!</span></i>)?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Hitler removed God from Germany's national motto and put
himself in God's place (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Wrong</span>)</i>. You can't get more secular atheist
than that. Communism is synonymous with atheism so saying no one has been
killed in the name of atheism is ridiculous (<span style="color: #ff6600;">Oh
brother...</span>).</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">As for Christianity being right, I guess you just
have to look at the world and see pragmatically what works. I have a feeling
that would result in a much larger argument (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">at this point, I realised this person had
utterly avoided the links I posted - twice - and was very comfortable in his
ignorance and terrified to challenge anything he was stating</span></i>).</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Darling, I can give you the
verses - all of them - if you wish... but then, you're the faithful one; I'm
sure you know exactly where they are. The argument "you're twisting the
meaning" falls on deaf ears if you're cherry picking - i.e. wearing mixed
fabrics for instance... It is disingenuous to not know the basics of the book
you say you believe in. Are you actually denying those things exist in your
bible? Seriously?</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Are you suggesting I'm "interpreting" the
Noah story - one of the key stories of your faith? If you are, explain my
'interpretation' and where it fails (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">this person never rises to this challenge - never points
out the flaws in my arguments - because he knows I am actually referencing
scripture and if he goes looking, he'll find it - and I suspect he hasn't ever
contemplated any of this, because churches tend much to avoid these subjects</span>)</i>.
</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Religion, quite readily disproves itself with the
slightest research.... </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Hitler did no such thing. Are you actually denying
the FACTS of that epoch? Seriously??? Hitler was a devout catholic who was SURE
'god' was on his side and had the pope telling him that was true. C'mon. Your
argument is bloody weak!</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">You're suggesting that "christianity"
works? Oh man. Yes. that would definitely elicit a whole other argument, which,
my friend, I'm sure, given that you have utterly avoided every opportunity to
respond to specifics here, you would not have substantiation for either.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Hitler changed Ein Reich, Ein
Volk, Ein Gott to Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer. The Nazis philosophical
roots come from Nietzsche, a well known anti-Christ (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;"><a href="http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Friedrich_Nietzsche/">Nietzsche is
brilliant and yes, atheist - and brilliant</a>; click here for quotes</span></i>).
</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I have read the bible and I am familiar with all
those verses, although I would not interpret them as you would. To paraphrase
Reagan, what is an atheist, someone who has read the bible and dismissed it;
what is a Christian, some one who has read the bible and understands it (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Both these
statements are utter bullshit: Atheists on balance have a FAR greater knowledge
of what's in the bible than christians have - that plays out every time there's
a discussion like this one; the christians are always caught with their pants
down, not knowing what's in their own book; secondly, atheists do not reject
the bible: as a literary work, it is unquestionably interesting but it is not,
cannot and should not be considered historical in any other sense than
interpretive, as there is NO historical or archaeological support for the
majority of its characters</span>)</i>.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Proof of God's existence doesn't come from a book (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">OH REALLY!?</span></i>),
it comes from living life and learning to recognize His hand in things, even
when they are difficult. You were raised in faith but something happened that
made you think God abandoned you (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">thank you for your baseless psychoanalysis, speaking of
narcissism...</span> )</i>, even though you were taught that he loved you. You
rant and rave that there is no God but something inside of you won't let you
believe it, no matter how much you profess it, no matter how much you want to
believe it and make the pain of that perceived abandonment go away. He didn't
abandon you. Turn to Him and you may find that peace you have been so long
denied (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Oh
for fuck's sake... could this person just please answer any of the proposed
'where's the evidence' questions?</span></i>)</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">IT:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">I know I should leave it alone MK,
but seriously that is your "evidence" that Hitler was atheist <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">(my bullets
added</span></i>)? </span></div>
<br />
<ul>
<li><span class="uficommentbody">How about the
fact that the public platform of the party endorsed Christianity? </span></li>
<li><span class="uficommentbody">How about the
fact that in addition to Jews, the Nazi's rounded up and murdered homosexuals
and atheists? </span></li>
<li><span class="uficommentbody">How about the
fact that Hitler had well known ties and support from the Vatican? </span></li>
</ul>
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">I don't really care about this
argument about Hitler, except that you distort well documented fact and use it
to try to paint atheists and atheism as evil. Enough of this. You clearly
cannot or will not look at facts objectively.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">Oh MK, that is indeed ridiculous.
NONE of that is proof. All of it is your position - an emotional position. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">Here's what you have <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">NOT </b>done:</span><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</div>
<br />
<ul>
<li><span class="uficommentbody"><span style="font-family: Wingdings; mso-bidi-font-family: Wingdings; mso-fareast-font-family: Wingdings;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;"><span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span></span><span class="uficommentbody">Provided
EVIDENCE. Saying a thing is so does not make it so; if it does because of a
book, Harry Potter is true. </span></li>
<li><span class="uficommentbody">You have NOT
provided ANY evidence, let alone that which would show your "god"
exists when the other 4999 or so do not.</span></li>
<li>
<span class="uficommentbody">You have NOT
specified why you choose your "god" over the other choices, nor have
you described why you do not believe in any of those others</span></li>
</ul>
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18.0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list 18.0pt; text-indent: -18.0pt;">
<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;" />
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">As to your comprehension of
atheism, you obviously do not even know the basic meaning of the word. A
-without; theism - gods. Atheists do not reject gods; the simply state - and
please read this carefully!</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">THERE IS NO EVIDENCE for ANY GOD. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">If you, as a good christian wish to sway any
atheist, you must present your EVIDENCE in a way that is convincing. It would
probably be a good idea to do that in a context of NOT insulting people's
intelligence, experience, research, education, logic and reason. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I have not once said here or anywhere else
"there is no god." I have repeatedly asked you for EVIDENCE of the
'god' you say exists and you have provided none. You have opted, instead, for
the USUAL and PREDICTABLE tactic of insulting and attacking and proffering
straw man arguments. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">My friend, I have seven years in this field and I
have heard all of what you've said so many times, I've lost count. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">What I have never heard, not from my family, my
church or any other church I've attended, not from the apologists, not from
those who seek to pervert history and deny archaeology, not from those who
can't understand a simple time line is EVIDENCE. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">I realise you come from a religious paradigm that
"Believe in me or I will burn you forever" as its mantra and that
your religion teaches people to instil religion by force or coercion but the
time for that is very, very quickly passing. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">The fact that there is no limit to the research a
person can do - because GOOGLE is, in actual fact, the oracle - means that the
age of coercive, repressive religions based on tribal stories more than 2000
years old is at an end. <br />
<br />
The ONLY way it will not come to an end is for your "god" to
literally appear. It has NOT in all of this planet's life and it certainly has
not in the time span homosapiens have walked this earth. It does not during any
war - and if you still claim Hitler was an atheist, then why didn't your 'god'
appear to save its chosen people. Hitler being a devout christian was STILL
left to burn in an underground bunker after committing a genocidal atrocity.
You can't have it both ways: either your 'god' steps in to stop such a horrific
crime or your 'god' gets on side with a true believer. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">As to your suggestions re Hitler here, that is
exactly the type of disgusting, revisionism that christians MUST resort to in
order to absolve their 'god.' The FACT is, however, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">MK</b>, Hitler was very much a christian with the backing of the also
very christian vatican.
</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">You have not even clicked that link, have you? You
will not for any reason even dare to consider your position is completely,
utterly flawed and that there is some 2000 years of PROOF that your position is
flawed, in that christianity - because it was initially a political structure -
was and continues to be equal to Islam, lethal in its quest to subjugate humans
and create them as unthinking serfs who will kill other humans in the name of
their 'god,' for which they have now, never have had and never will have the
SLIGHTEST atom of EVIDENCE. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">With respect to the initial subject, being the
horrific crime in Sandy Hook, you have ALSO
ignored the FACT that this mother and her son were CHRISTIANS, which flies in
the face of your assertion people need more 'god.' What tripe.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">The hoops you jump through MK! What a waste of time.
Wake up. </span><br />
<br />
<span class="uficommentbody">You have made it AMPLY clear you refuse any
intrusion of logic and evidence that you will not, under any circumstances
provide evidence for your claims, and that you will resort to attack rather
than analyse your position - and you have done so in public.</span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="mso-hansi-font-family: Symbol;">MK:</span></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<span class="uficommentbody">You claim I'm not objective(<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">Yes, because
you've provided absolutely NO support for any of your arguments AND you've
resorted to revisionist tactics</span></i>)? Really, Hitler could claim to be
Catholic (<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">oh
for shit's sake! Hitler's Mein Kampf was an ODE to is catholicism - and a
rejection of his Judaism; his father was Jewish!</span></i>) and seek support
politically from the Vatican
but any sane person looking at the Nazis can tell they worship the "Cult
of War". And Hitler was just one of the many people I mentione</span><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3]"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0.[0]">d.
You claim to be objective and blame religious people for the world's ills but
turn a blind eye to massive death and destruction caused by atheists,
destruction that dwarfs any evils committed in the name of religion. You're
offended that I portray atheism as evil? An objective look at the BILLIONS
slaughtered in the name of Godless philosophies shows that it is the greatest
evil the world has ever known.</span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0.[1]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0.[2]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0.[3]">As
for evidence of God, it's abundant and all around us. Though people view Him
from different perspectives the vast majority of people in the country, and the
world, believe in a supreme being. You ask for evidence but, having run into
your type before, you would accept none of what I present and would only mock
what I hold sacred. You don't cast pearls before swine. You claim to be
scientific but if you held up such an absolute standard of proof to any
scientific theory you would dismiss everything, including your own existence.</span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0.[4]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0.[5]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3].0.[6]">I
don't know what you hope to achieve with all your railing against religion.
Those of us who do believe in a God who rules over us all seek peace,
prosperity and good will towards all mankind, especially at this time of year.
I hope you have a Merry Christmas or what ever you atheists do at this time of
year.</span></span></span></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641385}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[1].[0]">
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">post removed for irrelevance</i></b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
MK, <span class="uficommentbody">NAME ANY atrocity committed
in the NAME of atheism!</span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[1]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[2]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3]">You
confuse "in the name of" with "BY" - and it is by this
device you IGNORE THE 2000 YEARS of atrocities committed IN THE NAME OF YOUR
GOD.</span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[4]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[5]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[6]">The
"all around us" argument is ridiculous, as everything around us has
an evident, provable, repeatable, biological explanation. </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[7]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[8]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[9]">Regardless
of the number of people that believe a thing, that demographic does not
constitute PROOF of that thing. But as you've brought it up, Michael, if mass
belief constitutes proof, WHY THEN, was THOR not real or is KRISHNA
or VISHNU? You understand the utter ridiculousness of your argument here?</span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[10]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[11]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[12]">I
am NOT mocking what you hold sacred: I am asking you to provide evidence for
this thing. IF you hold it sacred then ante up some evidence and stop avoiding
all the questions Ian and I have put to you. Your avoidance of those questions
is VERY, VERY telling, my friend.</span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[13]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[14]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[15]">I
am not railing. I am asking for evidence for your "god" and evidence
that proves it - apart from the other 4999 - is real when those others are not.
You said demographics but you ignore the FACT that the various religions
positions held just in India
are held by many millions more people than christianity is. You ignore that
Islam is the region of may millions more people than christianity; as such,
your argument is fatally-flawed. </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[16]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[17]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[18]">You
claimed that "more god" is what's needed when it is CLEAR that
religion of ANY type is a malignant force - and if we are just considering
Sandy Hook here, religion played a HUGE part in that scenario, from an
evangelical, "prepper" gun-owing mother who's religion and whose
'god' did NOTHING to stop her son from killing children who ALSO came from
religious families. Your "god" did NOT STEP IN in this case, never
has before and never.</span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[19]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[20]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[21]">As
for what we do during this holiday, which WAS a pagan holiday that the Romans
purloined during their quest to spread their politics and culture throughout
the eastern world and Europe (SEE MICHAEL, you'd know this if you ever cracked
open Google for two minute), we spend the time with our families and friends,
who we love dearly, and celebrate our relationships with them with food and
good cheer. We just don't accord any of that to a figure who never existed and
who was a remake of 20 others of exactly, or near exactly the same pedigree. So
really, our means of, and drive for celebration at this time is based on
reality and honesty and not on some made-up figure. </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[22]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[23]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[24]">You
seem completely unaware that christians tried - including going to court - to
BAN christmas as they found it an affront to their religion. </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[25]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[26]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><a href="http://www.chroniclewatch.com/biblical-issues/religion/catholicism/when-christians-banned-christmas/" id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[27]" target="_blank">http://www.chroniclewatch.com/biblical-issues/religion/catholicism/when-christians-banned-christmas/</a></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[28]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[29]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[30]">Christmas
trees are ALSO a pagan left-over AND the bible specifically says to christians
(In Corinthians 3:2), don't do as the pagans do and bring trees into the house.
</span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[31]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[32]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[33]">So,
Michael, I suggest you not only do not understand the foundations of your
faith, you also do not know where some of your traditions come from and how
they became "christian." You might do well to look up how
corporations began capitalising on the event during the 20th century. But then,
I know you don't actually do research. </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[34]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[35]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><a href="http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/" id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[36]" target="_blank">www.zeitgeistmovie.com</a><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641657}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[37]">.
<br />
<br />
Go watch the first 25 minutes. ((<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;"><span style="color: #ff6600;">I know this person will not and cannot, because preservation
of the myth is at the core; no challenge will be made because [the religious)
know that myth will blow apart like clouds in the wind if they look at it too
hard</span></i>).</span></span></div>
</span>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">WW:</b></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;">A</b><span class="uficommentbody">lso, MK, as you seem to either ignore or not know the
facts, Hitler was a devout Catholic for a variety of reasons, one being
Catholic support - and I mean MONEY - for his war against the Jews, and because
his father, who abandoned him and his mother, was Jewish. The man was SICK. He
was a psychopath and there is evidence his sickness was worsened by syphilis,
which it is understood, progressed and contributed to the extent and severities
of the atrocities committed by the SS under Hitler's direction. </span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[1]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[2]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[3]">Acts
of psychopaths and other ill individuals cannot be attributed to beliefs,
"gods," or lack there of; they can only be attributed to unchecked
psychopathology in the context of politics and of having got a psychopath into
the position of leadership. </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[4]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[5]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[6]">Honestly
Michael, your grasp of politics and your grasp of your own religion and of
mental illness are so obviously compromised... </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[7]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[8]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[9]">Also
full disclosure: this is a critically-interesting feed and exposes many of the
tactics employed by the religions (of any stripe) to avoid substantiating their
claims and their attempts to discredit those who ask for substantiation. As
such, I have copied the entire feed, removed any identifying information and
names and am posting the conversation to my blog in an annotated form, which
points out the straw man arguments the moving goal posts and the attempts to
revise or downplay aspects of known historical events and personalities. </span></span><br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[10]" />
<br id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[11]" />
<span class="uficommentbody"><span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[0].[0][2].0.[12]">Many
thanks, Michael for contributing to this exposure of those tactics.</span></span></div>
<span id=".reactRoot[1].[1][2][1]{comment179389732206349_641710}.0.[1].0.[1].0.[1].[0]"></span>WriterWriterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01300236898425396046noreply@blogger.com0